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Ratholing email


jerry
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@Leo-Unibet @Andy-Unibet @Stubbe-Unibet 

Yesterday i got contacted about ratholing.

Dont know if it was for my overall effort, or because of yesterday play. The email is in polish and is very standardized and vague and at no point im asked or accused by name. The content of it is that they are contacting about ratholing and the description of the term . At the same time email is titled with number so im thinking that maybe i triggered the system :Scared:

Yesterday didnt have the time for cash session so i went only for those 17 flops for St Patrick flip. Went away from tables too soon thinking i have the number [i have notifications off] and came straight back for one or two flops. The same thing happen probably more than a dozen times through other promos with flops to see. Was the system targeting me because of that? If yes i dont really know what to say :Geek:

WHAT EXACTLY IS CONSIDERED BY RATHOLING? When i have very aggro tables and and im few BB down and i win more than 1BB back and i dont want to play deep is that ratholing? When i have crazy allin guy at the table but somehow i win something from him [usually on Uni those guys are unbeatable] but i dont want to play with him anymore is that ratholing?

I need to know EXACTLY what i can and what i cant. Some softwares have solutions for it implemented in the client.

Email is saying also that Unibet reserve the right to suspend or close the account. Is my money in danger? Is this some kind three strikes thing or something. Im kinda worried here and im def off the cash tables for a while...:Disappointed::Angry:

the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist
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well, very interesting questions here, because I'm doing something like that when trying to "survivive" with my cash game ticket and see 300 flops...
I hope we are not doing something bad :/

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i agree, but if they give you a cash game ticket for a buy in that is 3x or 4x higher the one you play normally, what can you do?
And on top of that you ahve to see 300 flops to unlock it

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@jerry wrote:

Email is saying also that Unibet reserve the right to suspend or close the account. Is my money in danger? Is this some kind three strikes thing or something. Im kinda worried here and im def off the cash tables for a while...😞😠


Not a Fan of Ratholing but it's kinda aggressive af from Unibet. 

Ratholing is the act of cashing out chips from a cash game table then rebuying with a smaller amount of chips. It is considered unethical behaviour, and against the rules in many cash games. Interestingly,ratholing confers no specific advantage to the ratholer and no disadvantage to the other players at the table. In other words, there is no decent reason why ratholing should be considered unethical. It’s simply a case of players feeling bad that they can no longer win back the chips they lost to a certain villain. Must agree, if the villain plays 50bb-100bb and he does this i don't really get have a reaction, but there are those 400bb-500bb+ pots where they do this and if they also got lucky, man it tilt's me like a mf. But all of this can be easily fixed by implementing a 15-30 min clock like on the other rooms where the villain needs to wait the time amount implemented if he wishes to play again with 50bb-100bb at the same table, if not he can continue playing with the same stack. But idk, this day's i'm kinda undecided about my stance on this subject. 

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@jerry wrote:

@Leo-Unibet @Andy-Unibet @Stubbe-Unibet 

Yesterday i got contacted about ratholing.

Dont know if it was for my overall effort, or because of yesterday play. The email is in polish and is very standardized and vague and at no point im asked or accused by name. The content of it is that they are contacting about ratholing and the description of the term . At the same time email is titled with number so im thinking that maybe i triggered the system :Scared:

Yesterday didnt have the time for cash session so i went only for those 17 flops for St Patrick flip. Went away from tables too soon thinking i have the number [i have notifications off] and came straight back for one or two flops. The same thing happen probably more than a dozen times through other promos with flops to see. Was the system targeting me because of that? If yes i dont really know what to say :Geek:

WHAT EXACTLY IS CONSIDERED BY RATHOLING? When i have very aggro tables and and im few BB down and i win more than 1BB back and i dont want to play deep is that ratholing? When i have crazy allin guy at the table but somehow i win something from him [usually on Uni those guys are unbeatable] but i dont want to play with him anymore is that ratholing?

I need to know EXACTLY what i can and what i cant. Some softwares have solutions for it implemented in the client.

Email is saying also that Unibet reserve the right to suspend or close the account. Is my money in danger? Is this some kind three strikes thing or something. Im kinda worried here and im def off the cash tables for a while...:Disappointed::Angry:


Hi @jerry,

Just to confirm what we're referring to, I'll quote the English version of the email: -

"Ratholing is the act of cashing out chips from a cash game table for then to rebuy almost instantly  with a smaller amount of chips. It is considered unethical and is one of the most common complaints from our customers when it comes to reasons why they have a poor playing experience. While we believe it is ok for a player who is uncomfortable playing with a large stack to leave the table occasionally, repeated removal of chips, especially for small amounts, is not considered acceptable."

I don't think we can make the part in bold much clearer to be honest, other than adding "per session over an extended period of time". The emails were sent out to a select number of customers that were ratholing hundreds of times over a 45 day period from the start of the year. It is not related to any actions during the St. Patricks Day promotion and what you did during that would not be considered an issue. Playing a few hands and then finishing your session is fine, repeatedly joining and leaving the while taking small amounts of profit off the table is not.

Your money is safe. In the unlikely event a customer continues their pattern of persistent ratholing, after being warned, and we need to close their account they will still be able to withdraw any funds. It's much more likely we'll just block access to the poker client rather than close the account entirely but we'd hope that we don't need to use either of these options with any of the players and they take heed of the information given to them and change they way they go about their sessions.

 

 

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@Andy-UnibetAbout blocking account's after the customer as been warned, don't you think it's better to have a system where you block the customer for 1 month then 3 then 6 and then 1 year, etc. This gives them time to reflect and also you don't lose them for eternity. 

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Hi @FreedoM,

How we would deal with players that ignore any warnings we give them would obviously be on a case by case basis and I hope we don't have to do it with any of the players that received this email or any other we send in future. Having said that, we also have to consider whether it is worth allowing a single player back when they've made the playing experience of many other customer worse in the past. We don't take account blocking/closure lightly and it is considered a last resort. 

As far as I'm concerned, if a player received a one month block and then came back and continued to persistently rathole then a 3 month, 6 month or 1 year block is not going to change their behaviour. The email sent out should be the trigger for these players to reflect on their behavior and decide if they want to change it or not.

Automatic ratholing prevention is on the development roadmap and will hopefully eliminate this issue in the future.

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@Andy-Unibet wrote:

Hi @FreedoM,

How we would deal with players that ignore any warnings we give them would obviously be on a case by case basis and I hope we don't have to do it with any of the players that received this email or any other we send in future. Having said that, we also have to consider whether it is worth allowing a single player back when they've made the playing experience of many other customer worse in the past. We don't take account blocking/closure lightly and it is considered a last resort. 

As far as I'm concerned, if a player received a one month block and then came back and continued to persistently rathole then a 3 month, 6 month or 1 year block is not going to change their behaviour. The email sent out should be the trigger for these players to reflect on their behavior and decide if they want to change it or not.

Automatic ratholing prevention is on the development roadmap and will hopefully eliminate this issue in the future.


Slowroll is also unethical behaviour. Etiquette and poker are not compatible at all! We are not in an English club for aristocrats.

Many annoying things are part of the players' strategy.  Constant use of timebank on the bubble in a tournament is also unethical behaviour.

Banning player accounts for one thing and turning a blind eye to everything else is also unethical behaviour.

 

 

 

 

 

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@Argevolen wrote:


@Andy-Unibet wrote:

Hi @FreedoM,

How we would deal with players that ignore any warnings we give them would obviously be on a case by case basis and I hope we don't have to do it with any of the players that received this email or any other we send in future. Having said that, we also have to consider whether it is worth allowing a single player back when they've made the playing experience of many other customer worse in the past. We don't take account blocking/closure lightly and it is considered a last resort. 

As far as I'm concerned, if a player received a one month block and then came back and continued to persistently rathole then a 3 month, 6 month or 1 year block is not going to change their behaviour. The email sent out should be the trigger for these players to reflect on their behavior and decide if they want to change it or not.

Automatic ratholing prevention is on the development roadmap and will hopefully eliminate this issue in the future.


Slowroll is also unethical behaviour. Etiquette and poker are not compatible at all! We are not in an English club for aristocrats.

Many annoying things are part of the players' strategy.  Constant use of timebank on the bubble in a tournament is also unethical behaviour.

Banning player accounts for one thing and turning a blind eye to everything else is also unethical behaviour.

 

 

 

 

 


Sounds like the Ratholing just hit you hard? Slowrolling or tanking might be annoying but widely used by MTT players on every server. Ratholing in other hand is blocked by majority of the Poker rooms. So I'd say that you have to come up with a better excuse.

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@Andy-Unibet   

Thx for saying that money is safe but closing the account would hit me hard sicne i like playing here...

Short sessions [or shots at higher stakes] when youre hit your goals [1-4BB] are considered ratholing [hit and run]? I mean i have 6 tables and won 4BB on them so i want to go home :Tongue: not wait to lose that profit. Is it unethical? I want to win, i dont want to give guys chance to get their money back tbh. I dont really care if someone hits me with a bad beat and leave, there will be other guys to get that money back. 

I really dont consider myself a ratholer. I had some rough sessions this year [earned already 3 double trouble tickets] with many recovering ones when every BB win counted as a miracle so probably few times i took the money from the table and then came back with 100bb. I dont like playing deep, especially when im down. I thought i can make that decision and in email their is this thing about Unibet understand that some players are feeling uneasy playing deep....

Anyway what are my options now? So im playing 6 tables now and i have big profit in 2 of them and i close them. So now i just dont come back to them to piss off system/players and only play the rest 4? :Smile: Would that be ok? Or just wait some orbits after double up?

Whats the timetable on automatic ratholing prevention?

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@Argevolen wrote:

@Andy-Unibet wrote:

Hi @FreedoM,

How we would deal with players that ignore any warnings we give them would obviously be on a case by case basis and I hope we don't have to do it with any of the players that received this email or any other we send in future. Having said that, we also have to consider whether it is worth allowing a single player back when they've made the playing experience of many other customer worse in the past. We don't take account blocking/closure lightly and it is considered a last resort. 

As far as I'm concerned, if a player received a one month block and then came back and continued to persistently rathole then a 3 month, 6 month or 1 year block is not going to change their behaviour. The email sent out should be the trigger for these players to reflect on their behavior and decide if they want to change it or not.

Automatic ratholing prevention is on the development roadmap and will hopefully eliminate this issue in the future.


Slowroll is also unethical behaviour. Etiquette and poker are not compatible at all! We are not in an English club for aristocrats.

Many annoying things are part of the players' strategy.  Constant use of timebank on the bubble in a tournament is also unethical behaviour.

Banning player accounts for one thing and turning a blind eye to everything else is also unethical behaviour.


Use of timebank isn't unethical, unless we'd have unlimited timebank, which we don't. Stalling is part of the game, and the timebank is configured in such a way that there's a balance. However, if you were to use max time in every single hand across thousands of hands and tournaments (for no reason other than to try and piss off the other players), we'd probably take action as well and send you a warning. The two things just can't be compared; primarily because there're already measures in place against one and not the other :)

That we shouldn't enforce one rule, because you deem other aspects equally important or annoying, that's just silly, especially when the comparison doesn't make any sense. 

If you rathole to an extreme extent, you're a real annoyance to the other players. This is what's key and why we take action. To call any preventive measures unethical, well, I think that speaks for itself really :)

As Andy said, we're also working on the technical solution to prevent it.

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@jerry wrote:

@Andy-Unibet   

Thx for saying that money is safe but closing the account would hit me hard sicne i like playing here...

Short sessions [or shots at higher stakes] when youre hit your goals [1-4BB] are considered ratholing [hit and run]? I mean i have 6 tables and won 4BB on them so i want to go home :Tongue: not wait to lose that profit. Is it unethical? I want to win, i dont want to give guys chance to get their money back tbh. I dont really care if someone hits me with a bad beat and leave, there will be other guys to get that money back. 


Short answer is yes.

But it's not black and white and we won't give you a guideline with figures - that'll come when the technical prevention is in place. If you're taking a shot at a higher stake once a week, or you just have a really short session and end the day with a tiny profit, that's perfectly fine.

What's not okay is consistently leaving for then to re-join the same table shortly after - we're not talking a couple times a day, but more (in most cases A LOT more). This one sentence should be a pretty good guideline on what not to do :)

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@jerry wrote:

 

 

Short sessions [or shots at higher stakes] when youre hit your goals [1-4BB] are considered ratholing [hit and run]?


I'm curious what is your goal with those 1-4 BB's. It seems too little reward comparing to risking 50BB's (when you sit in). I presume you accumulate those winnings but what is the next step?

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@psrquack wrote:


@jerry wrote:

 

 

Short sessions [or shots at higher stakes] when youre hit your goals [1-4BB] are considered ratholing [hit and run]?


I'm curious what is your goal with those 1-4 BB's. It seems too little reward comparing to risking 50BB's (when you sit in). I presume you accumulate those winnings but what is the next step?


Dont know if i get this right, maybe its other way around but 1BB=100bb  1bb=0,04e in 4nl

So yeah when im 12e up im usually good... 

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@jerry wrote:



Dont know if i get this right, maybe its other way around but 1BB=100bb  1bb=0,04e in 4nl

So yeah when im 12e up im usually good... 


Thanks for explaining this, for me BB was big bet coming from the fixed limit poker times what is equal to 4 cent at NL4 tables, so winning 4 cent and sitting out was strange for me. So you triple up and then leave the table. Now I hopefully understand.

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@Pionrj wrote:




Sounds like the Ratholing just hit you hard? Slowrolling or tanking might be annoying but widely used by MTT players on every server. Ratholing in other hand is blocked by majority of the Poker rooms. So I'd say that you have to come up with a better excuse.


There is a huge difference between:

- The technical blocking of the possibility of ratholing

- The possibility of getting your account banned at any time if your actions are perceived as ratholing.

I don't know of any poker rooms that take this approach to dealing with the issue of rotolining. Perhaps you can tell me at least one?

I haven't received an email about ratholing. I would never specifically do something like that in a regular game.

But when I'm wagering cash tickets  my actions could easily be perceived as ratholing.

Such a solution brings me more risks and inconvenience than benefit.

If anyone likes it, no problem. But then don't complain...

 

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@Argevolen wrote:


@Pionrj wrote:




Sounds like the Ratholing just hit you hard? Slowrolling or tanking might be annoying but widely used by MTT players on every server. Ratholing in other hand is blocked by majority of the Poker rooms. So I'd say that you have to come up with a better excuse.


There is a huge difference between:

- The technical blocking of the possibility of ratholing

- The possibility of getting your account banned at any time if your actions are perceived as ratholing.

I don't know of any poker rooms that take this approach to dealing with the issue of rotolining. Perhaps you can tell me at least one?

I haven't received an email about ratholing. I would never specifically do something like that in a regular game.

But when I'm wagering cash tickets  my actions could easily be perceived as ratholing.

Such a solution brings me more risks and inconvenience than benefit.

If anyone likes it, no problem. But then don't complain...

 


I'm not sure, what is the question you wanted an answer? But just for example, GG&PartyPoker has it on their rules, that players who do this will be first warned then banned. UPoker uses CT, which doesn't let winning players to leave the table with their stacks before the time has gone. Timer is different on different tables but usually it's something between 10-30 minutes.

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@Argevolen wrote:

@Pionrj wrote:



Sounds like the Ratholing just hit you hard? Slowrolling or tanking might be annoying but widely used by MTT players on every server. Ratholing in other hand is blocked by majority of the Poker rooms. So I'd say that you have to come up with a better excuse.


There is a huge difference between:

- The technical blocking of the possibility of ratholing

- The possibility of getting your account banned at any time if your actions are perceived as ratholing.

I don't know of any poker rooms that take this approach to dealing with the issue of rotolining. Perhaps you can tell me at least one?

I haven't received an email about ratholing. I would never specifically do something like that in a regular game.

But when I'm wagering cash tickets  my actions could easily be perceived as ratholing.

Such a solution brings me more risks and inconvenience than benefit.

If anyone likes it, no problem. But then don't complain...


Now you're just making your own theories which I don't think are based on anything said in this thread - please read what Andy and I posted earlier :)

"- The possibility of getting your account banned at any time if your actions are perceived as ratholing."

You obviously don't just get banned from one day to the other, due to this. This has never happened and it hasn't been mentioned in this thread that it would. This thread is about warnings being sent. If you then choose to ignore this warning (possible there'll be a 2nd as well, depending on the circumstances for the individual), yes, you might find poker will be blocked for you.

Doing it with the occational cash game ticket won't result in a poker block or even a warning.

Your conclusion is your own opinion, and I know for a fact, based on actual data (survey and poker transaction), that it's simply wrong :)

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@Stubbe-Unibet wrote:


@Argevolen wrote:


@Andy-Unibet wrote:

Hi @FreedoM,

How we would deal with players that ignore any warnings we give them would obviously be on a case by case basis and I hope we don't have to do it with any of the players that received this email or any other we send in future. Having said that, we also have to consider whether it is worth allowing a single player back when they've made the playing experience of many other customer worse in the past. We don't take account blocking/closure lightly and it is considered a last resort. 

As far as I'm concerned, if a player received a one month block and then came back and continued to persistently rathole then a 3 month, 6 month or 1 year block is not going to change their behaviour. The email sent out should be the trigger for these players to reflect on their behavior and decide if they want to change it or not.

Automatic ratholing prevention is on the development roadmap and will hopefully eliminate this issue in the future.


Slowroll is also unethical behaviour. Etiquette and poker are not compatible at all! We are not in an English club for aristocrats.

Many annoying things are part of the players' strategy.  Constant use of timebank on the bubble in a tournament is also unethical behaviour.

Banning player accounts for one thing and turning a blind eye to everything else is also unethical behaviour.


Use of timebank isn't unethical, unless we'd have unlimited timebank, which we don't. Stalling is part of the game, and the timebank is configured in such a way that there's a balance. However, if you were to use max time in every single hand across thousands of hands and tournaments (for no reason other than to try and piss off the other players), we'd probably take action as well and send you a warning. The two things just can't be compared; primarily because there're already measures in place against one and not the other :)

I wrote about the excessive use of timebanking on the tournament bubble. Ask your colleagues what it is and why players do it.

You can also ask their opinion on the ethics of these actions.

That we shouldn't enforce one rule, because you deem other aspects equally important or annoying, that's just silly, especially when the comparison doesn't make any sense. 

The comparison really makes no sense because you are not comparing what I wrote, but what you want to compare!

If you rathole to an extreme extent, you're a real annoyance to the other players. This is what's key and why we take action. To call any preventive measures unethical, well, I think that speaks for itself really :)

It's not what you do that matters, but how you do it!

As Andy said, we're also working on the technical solution to prevent it.

 


 

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@Argevolen I play a lot of MTTs on many sites. On Unibet only a few every now and then. But I really don't get what is this exsessive time banking? Could you please explain me. It has to be something that happens only on Unibet. On other sites about 90% of short stack players stall close to bubble or a money jump. Basically this means that no one gets a real advantage of it. So it's just part of tournament poker. You have to deal with it. 

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@Argevolen wrote:

@Stubbe-Unibet wrote:
Use of timebank isn't unethical, unless we'd have unlimited timebank, which we don't. Stalling is part of the game, and the timebank is configured in such a way that there's a balance. However, if you were to use max time in every single hand across thousands of hands and tournaments (for no reason other than to try and piss off the other players), we'd probably take action as well and send you a warning. The two things just can't be compared; primarily because there're already measures in place against one and not the other :)

I wrote about the excessive use of timebanking on the tournament bubble. Ask your colleagues what it is and why players do it.

You can also ask their opinion on the ethics of these actions.

That we shouldn't enforce one rule, because you deem other aspects equally important or annoying, that's just silly, especially when the comparison doesn't make any sense. 

The comparison really makes no sense because you are not comparing what I wrote, but what you want to compare!

If you rathole to an extreme extent, you're a real annoyance to the other players. This is what's key and why we take action. To call any preventive measures unethical, well, I think that speaks for itself really :)

It's not what you do that matters, but how you do it!

As Andy said, we're also working on the technical solution to prevent it.



Now you lost me :)

Don't understand what you mean with the first comment, as it doesn't relate to anything I said; or you're just confirming what I said.

It's not a problem to stall on the bubble, and I obviously understand the reasons for doing so :)

Your second comment. You wrote "Banning player accounts for one thing and turning a blind eye to everything else is also unethical behaviour.". Not sure how to understand that in a different way, the context taken into consideration :)

Third comment doesn't make sense to me either, unless you actually have some contructive feedback or anything in particular about the process you don't like? - as mentioned in the previous comment, your theories are off.  So far your feedback has been that you don't like warnings, unless I've missed something between the lines :)

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@Stubbe-Unibet wrote:

 

Your conclusion is your own opinion, and I know for a fact, based on actual data (survey and poker transaction), that it's simply wrong :


You seem annoyed by the fact that I have an opinion. :Tongue:

That's what's most important! You have the information and understand how it will work.

Players don't have that information!

They are just concerned about the possibility of losing their account.

You could just clarify some points and announce the introduction of the technical side of this issue.

But it's not your style. It's much more interesting to pounce on players' posts and explain them what it is:

- stupid.

-wrong

- doesn't make sense

- you can not compare

and others....

Be gentle with people, not everyone is as smart as you are!:Smile:

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I'm not annoyed at all, and in principle I can of course understand the concern. However, it's not like you're new to the site, and you know by now that we don't just block poker without a reason. Making up theories that contradicts what's written earlier in the thread, the entire history of Unibet poker etc., when you know the product as well as you do, that's not very constructive, but I don't mind decisions being questioned or discussed :)

 

Andy clarified in the very first post that the funds would never be at risk and we'd never block someone without a warning first (when we're talking ratholing). He also made it clear that it's quite significant "abuse". I clarified later on both of these points, mentioning that we'd handle it case-by-case and we'd likely issue a 2nd warning in some cases.

 

The technical implementation will be announced in due course (at least 2 weeks prior to it being released). It'll basically be limited how often you can return with less than you left, so casual "ratholing" will be possible, but what I'd consider "abuse" won't be possible.

 

I didn't say anything you said is stupid, but I stand by that majority of your comments don't make any sense to me, and you approach the subject in a very strange fashion, considering how well you know the product, our approach and how long you've been active on here. If we had a history of blocking poker left and right and never being transparent, I'd get where you're coming from, but that isn't exactly the case :)

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