Stubbe-Unibet Posted July 19, 2021 Share Posted July 19, 2021 Been a couple weeks with game lab active now, so would love to hear your thoughts on it. Have you been using it? Which parts? What have you found useful and what don't you see much value in? I'd personally love to build on the game lab in the future, so your feedback is very valuable. As mentioned in other threads, one thing I'd for instance like to see added is a proper "luck indicator", looking at the allin equity and all-in hands won. Please do keep in mind that the school aspect of the game lab was never intended as a tool that'll help the best players become even better. It's a basic tool which will hopefully help the worse players improve and stay longer in the game. At the same time we'd of course like even some of the more experienced players to at least find the stats interesting. 3 Check the latest poker release notes. Have a look at our poker promotions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreedoM Posted July 19, 2021 Share Posted July 19, 2021 For me personally, I hope you guys don't take offense but it isn't what I've expected. I was expecting something like the "GG PokerCraft" or Better. That said it doesn't make it bad or good, it's just not what I need myself. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merenitsu Posted July 19, 2021 Share Posted July 19, 2021 What we liked. Hexapro statistics. Hands played statistics. Tournament statistics. Sound design. Design What you don't like or think is useless. The first level in Hexapro. At the moment I have only opened 3 levels. Maybe there are diamonds further - it's difficult to evaluate. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
100HourChallenge Posted July 19, 2021 Share Posted July 19, 2021 I enjoy most the MTT and Achievements sections of the Game Lab. The school part I find a bit irrelevant, but I guess its fine. Cant say Im using it much, but I check in every now and then... All-in luck sounds like an interesting stat, I like it. I think the game lab has great potential if you use it in creative ways, so yeah, just keep brainstorming and Im sure it will improve every month:) 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadAdo Posted July 20, 2021 Share Posted July 20, 2021 I like the idea. I'm fan of new aspects and appreciate any kind of improving my own game . Basically having 'any' kind of the stats available without needs of asking for it here in the community seems to be good move. Missing some OMAHA tab + counter of volume on week/day/hour basis would be awesome. Flip tournaments indicator could be also a 'handy' and suits the 0lucky category from my point of view. Well, keep up the good work, I'm also missing Stubbe's balance (but that with several digits, not the last screenshots one ) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevanbt Posted July 20, 2021 Share Posted July 20, 2021 im with it, it is of interest, i do go there now and then but then i havent gotten very far yet. i like the new structure as well. easy to see and understand, points come regularly and i like that. I like it all. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stubbe-Unibet Posted July 20, 2021 Author Share Posted July 20, 2021 14 hours ago, FreedoM said: For me personally, I hope you guys don't take offense but it isn't what I've expected. I was expecting something like the "GG PokerCraft" or Better. That said it doesn't make it bad or good, it's just not what I need myself. Always appreciate honest feedback, and we should probably have been better at settling the expectations ahead of the launch. The vision for the game lab was never for it to be like the PokerCraft tool. I would love to add a hand matrix as part of the luck section, but it'd show the distribution of hands with simple color coding, to highlight whether you really are unlucky and never get high pocket pairs for instance. 13 hours ago, Greggg said: Honestly, I don't use it at all. I also don't like "tools" that would help the weaker players...but this won't help them that much anyway. And to be total negative: I also don't like the new loyalty system. It's more complicated and less rewarding than the old one. So everything looks fine for my taste... Helping the weaker players become a little better is not a bad thing for a winning player, unless you only care about super short-term winrate and profit The second paragraph I don't quite understand. Sure, if you have been playing with challenges for years and know how they work, then it might be more complicated, but as a new player, there's just no way it's remotely as complex to understand. It's also more rewarding for a significant share of players. Only the top raking players - that don't reach the last level - will be rewarded less. I do agree we can be better at explaining the mechanics within the client. Something we're looking at already. 2 Check the latest poker release notes. Have a look at our poker promotions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stubbe-Unibet Posted July 20, 2021 Author Share Posted July 20, 2021 And thanks for the feedback everyone, don't have time to write a reply to you all now. If there's one particular piece of info you'd like to see added, just share here and I'll review it all later. Personally, I'd love to see anonymized hand history as well as easy access to downloading game stats, but there's not quite alignment on that internally at the moment, so we'll see - this way we can continue to mostly focus the game lab on recreationals (of course the higher levels aren't, but I also don't think they provide as valuable info) while also having access to a lot more valuable data for the more serious players. 3 Check the latest poker release notes. Have a look at our poker promotions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psrquack Posted July 20, 2021 Share Posted July 20, 2021 (edited) My game advisor says raise more often and don't call so much. Because I have tried to clear a ticket I need cheap flops and 1BB calls. So my suggestion would be a tab in where you can see your stats when you are playing with the 'ticket's money' or with your own dime. EDIT: I have forgotten the milestone hand achievements, which could give more informations about your playing style/outcome not the quantity. I would prefer a search option (which tier is profitable-f.e. 0-1000 hands: upswing, 2000-3000 hands:downswing), new avatars after playing X amount or hands to be unlock, beat yourself option: what means you can try to earn more profit than in last month and if you success then you can unlock a new avatar/game lab badge/small reward etc. When I click on biggest HexaPro wins (podium) then I can see the last hand of the HexaPro. For me would be better watching the hand from the beginning (more excitement). Edited July 20, 2021 by psrquack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadAdo Posted July 20, 2021 Share Posted July 20, 2021 @Stubbe-Unibet seems like some of HX-pro stuff did not work as stated (L1->School/HexaPRO unlock Preflop raised all-in vs. called all-ins after 6 games, L2->HexaPRO/Dashboard showing 14 tournaments played so far ...): Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snufkins Posted July 20, 2021 Share Posted July 20, 2021 As I understand it (or maybe I missed it) data/statistics for Sit n Go games are not avilable in the Game Lab thing, are there plans to inlcude SnG's there as well in the future? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rushbie Posted July 20, 2021 Share Posted July 20, 2021 (edited) "Helping the weaker player become better is never a good thing," Oh yes it is. For example: you. The ecosystem benefits. Edited July 20, 2021 by Rushbie 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stubbe-Unibet Posted July 21, 2021 Author Share Posted July 21, 2021 14 hours ago, Greggg said: Helping the weaker player become better is never a good thing, because you really cannot appreciate how much of a "boost" you give them and maybe you end up creating an even better player then yourself. + I always care about short-term, because that's the present, something more real and achievable...And I say it by experience: Long-term plans almost always doesn't work out the way expected and usually you'll find yourself waiting for something that will never come even if your plan looked perfect at the beginning... + Who said that I'm a winning player?! So my conclusion: don't feed the monster / don't teach the weaker players... Simply put, you are wrong You want to drain the worse players as fast as possible, which only has a negative impact. Unless you only ever play one session, and you end up with the players doing it at exactly your table, it is bad for you. I'd also like to stress that the game lab won't revolutionize the site and level of play. It'll have an impact for sure, but it's likely rather small, so I don't think you need to worry, even if we say you're right and you benefit from draining players as fast as possible. 14 hours ago, Greggg said: I'm not a new player, so for me the previous system was easier. No levels, no point multipliers, game lab, stats, etc. I did not like the old system, but changing something bad for worse just to change something is never good. Also, while I have to admit that I did not calculated the differences, it certainly looks like you get your bonus-points at a slower rate especially at low levels (my levels)... That's totally fair, even if I don't get it. Challenges were crazy complicated and it was impossible for players to figure out how much rakeback they would be getting - there were HUGE RB swings for players raking the exact same amount, and it wasn't in a way that it benefited the ecology. You can check my old thread with the loyalty system details. In there you got a graph where you can see the systems compared 2 Check the latest poker release notes. Have a look at our poker promotions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stubbe-Unibet Posted July 21, 2021 Author Share Posted July 21, 2021 1 minute ago, Greggg said: Simply put, YOU are wrong If a weak player (fish) only want to stay if he gets better, if he is being educated, then he actually cannot be considered a fish anymore and later on he might even become a deadly shark! Look, the situation is pretty clear for many many years (since the global shrinking of the poker market): YOU (poker sites) want more players, want loyal costumers and this is why almost every poker site offers some kind of educational material (videos, stats, tools...or this game lab thing) to keep weak players longer in the game...WE (players) want profit and most of it is generated by bad, weak players, not educated, ambitious, smart opponents! As I said, if you teach a fish he stops being a fish anymore...it's really that simple. I can accept the fact that poker sites and players have very different goals with new players, why can't you just admit it too? Why you have to continue with your opinion by forcing the idea of players and poker sites having a common interest in helping these new players get better? It's a nonsense...but if I'm that wrong may the other users comment on my opinion instead of you, since you are an employee of Unibet (there's nothing wrong with that, but obviously you have to defend the system, so I can't say you are very objective in this case). The big positive of playing at Unibet was that the site does not allow tools or anything else (not even player notes) compared to other poker sites, so the game was kept as simple and close to offline poker as possible. IMO with these kind of stuff Unibet will start to lose it's major (and only) advantage / difference compared with other sites. Above is just your subjective opinion, and my reply was based on data. It's not about whether customer wants to stay if he gets better. It's about the correlation between loss rate, churn and lifetime value. Your assumptions are contradicted by all data I've ever seen on the matter. Which is better: 1. Player loses €200 in 3 days and stops playing for never to return 2. Player loses €5000 in 5 years It's really quite simple. And again, I'm not saying the game lab will have a massive impact on this, it's just the principle of wanting to drain players as fast possible, which is wrong and bad for site and all players. I love to hear all opinions, but when something is easily disproven, I'll of course comment on it. It isn't just a matter of opinion, when there is plenty of data relating to the subject 4 1 Check the latest poker release notes. Have a look at our poker promotions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cris1285 Posted July 21, 2021 Share Posted July 21, 2021 Really weak players wont be well educated by game lab, because they simply cant reach sufficient levels. Really weak players dont think they are weak, its the rigged site, the lucky opponents and so on, they are too stubborn to bother with game lab. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stubbe-Unibet Posted July 21, 2021 Author Share Posted July 21, 2021 10 minutes ago, Greggg said: Regarding the loyalty system, as I said before, without doing the maths it FEELS like the new system isn't that favorable for low level players (like myself), but if everybody else think otherwise then all is good since they'll all be happy with it so you don't have to convince me to gain one more happy costumer... What I also cannot accept that you asked us for our opinion, but if we start to criticize that's not welcomed and is unaccepted, have to be confuted immediately and only positive replies are allowed...why it is that hard to accept that we think differently and move on...and let others criticize me if they want... Here's the graph I shared a while ago in the other thread: The challenges data is based on 6 months of actual customer data - entire customer base - looking at their rake and rakeback. Things can look very different for individual customers of course, due to how the old system was so different across different game types. 1 Check the latest poker release notes. Have a look at our poker promotions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stubbe-Unibet Posted July 21, 2021 Author Share Posted July 21, 2021 4 minutes ago, cris1285 said: Really weak players wont be well educated by game lab, because they simply cant reach sufficient levels. Really weak players dont think they are weak, its the rigged site, the lucky opponents and so on, they are too stubborn to bother with game lab. That will depend on the stakes. If we're talking the lowest stakes, then sure, you have a point. The school rake requirement is quite low. The second part I disagree about. Sure, it does apply to some, as evident from threads on here, but it's a generalization which I don't think should be made. There're plenty of losing players who aren't deluded about their own skill level. I am a good example. I don't play to win long-term - I'm aware I can't - but I play for the entertainment and goal of short-term profit (hitting a high multiplier on HexaPro or luckboxing my way to a nice MTT prize or big cash pot). I would personally find the game lab figures interesting to look at, but it wouldn't change my game much, as I play for the entertainment, not to become a winning poker player. 2 Check the latest poker release notes. Have a look at our poker promotions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cris1285 Posted July 21, 2021 Share Posted July 21, 2021 11 minutes ago, Stubbe-Unibet said: That will depend on the stakes. If we're talking the lowest stakes, then sure, you have a point. The school rake requirement is quite low. The second part I disagree about. Sure, it does apply to some, as evident from threads on here, but it's a generalization which I don't think should be made. There're plenty of losing players who aren't deluded about their own skill level. I am a good example. I don't play to win long-term - I'm aware I can't - but I play for the entertainment and goal of short-term profit (hitting a high multiplier on HexaPro or luckboxing my way to a nice MTT prize or big cash pot). I would personally find the game lab figures interesting to look at, but it wouldn't change my game much, as I play for the entertainment, not to become a winning poker player. Thats what i meant, they dont really care the game lab, some dont even check, others dont change their game. Of course we are talking about the majority. I dont think we have to afraid that unibet schools players into sharks Personally i find the game lab interesting, but because i dont play too much hexa and cash game (and if yes, its because of challenges), its just for fun stats for now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreedoM Posted July 21, 2021 Share Posted July 21, 2021 23 minutes ago, Greggg said: I prefer the 1st scenario where he loses (hopefully to me) that sum and never returns 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stubbe-Unibet Posted July 21, 2021 Author Share Posted July 21, 2021 5 minutes ago, cris1285 said: Thats what i meant, they dont really care the game lab, some dont even check, others dont change their game. Of course we are talking about the majority. I dont think we have to afraid that unibet schools players into sharks Personally i find the game lab interesting, but because i dont play too much hexa and cash game (and if yes, its because of challenges), its just for fun stats for now. We agree As mentioned earlier, I don't think it'll drastically change things. Only on-table advise could have a huge impact, but that's a whole different discussion. It remains to be seen what the impact will be. At this stage we can only speculate 1 Check the latest poker release notes. Have a look at our poker promotions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
100HourChallenge Posted July 21, 2021 Share Posted July 21, 2021 I will put out a 'controversial' opinion: Game lab will have no effect whatsoever on the skill level of a weak player (in its current form). It simply doesn't explain much how a player can improve, all it does is mention that something could be improved. Which it also does for me by the way, so I guess I have to relearn how I play poker too 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreedoM Posted July 21, 2021 Share Posted July 21, 2021 Even if "GameLab" would give/have all the tools/knowledge so anyone can become a crusher 90% will stop at knowing you can become a crusher and never spend the time to actually do it. I know people that did buy courses and didn't even bother going through a quarter of them. I personally have like 3 courses that I never opened. The only people that have the mentality/fear that the games will get tougher are the slightly winning/breakeven REGs, mostly because they aren't doing much to get better themselves. Imagine being so entitled that you think you are owed something in poker or in life. Sorry if someone feels offended but this is ridiculous. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stubbe-Unibet Posted July 21, 2021 Author Share Posted July 21, 2021 11 minutes ago, Greggg said: I have a simple question (which - I know - should be addressed to Stubbe-Unibet not to you): If Unibet really want to keep players for a longer time why don't they pay the price for it by offering better welcome bonuses, promotions, freerolls or whatever new players like instead of making us pay the cost of it by creating better players who play more hands against us? Is this fair? This is the typical case of transferring the cost of something to someone who doesn't even want that thing to happen. https://www.unibet.com/promotions/poker-promotions/replay-rewards just one of a few different initiatives. Welcome offers and freerolls are not an effective tool in this regard. I'm personally for doing more like replay rewards - whole loyalty should take ecology into mind imo - but it'd mean lower RB for winning players 1 Check the latest poker release notes. Have a look at our poker promotions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreedoM Posted July 21, 2021 Share Posted July 21, 2021 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Greggg said: now I play only low stakes and just for fun Playing for fun implies you're enjoy your time regardless of the result. So if that were true we wouldn't have this debate. Playing to Win is when you start a game with the primary intention of claiming Victory. This looks more like your speed. Also about winning players we can only speculate but only @Stubbe-Unibet can clarify the percent since he has access to this data. My money is on 5% and under from the pool are pro players but the number can be even lower when we take into account many of them also try the other products. Edited July 21, 2021 by FreedoM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreedoM Posted July 21, 2021 Share Posted July 21, 2021 4 minutes ago, Greggg said: 100%? Nope. I don't really want to play slots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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