Game lab discussion - what's good and bad?

[MadAdo]

@Stubbe-Unibet currently I can see following:

-> and 1 tournament BEFORE that it shown value of 20% (so according to my MATH skills I interpret it was like 9 out of 45).

So now comes the question: is it a case that displayed value is just result of a trim -> ((int) ratio) ? Based on my MATH skills (again) it should be displayed like 22% (10 out of 46) 🤔 Thanks for letting us know 😇

[Pionrj]

@GregggI just have to give my opinion for this. If you're looking for fast wins, you're on the wrong site. You can never know who's the rec and who's the reg when you take a seat. Ok, some are using same alias/avatar all the time, but you can't see those before you're in the table.

 

Telling that this game lab is a move on wrong direction, because fishes can become sharks is crazy. Now there's a few numbers telling how they are playing too loose or tight. And those numbers are based on nothing really. I played a couple hundred hands before I took a look on the game lab and it's basically saying, that my PF aggression is way too high. Well, if there would have been 5 good players this would be true. But there was 3 good/decent and 2 fish. What do you do then? Of course you're isolating those fishes as much as you can. 

 

My point is, that even tho it gives out some advices or percents, it won't make the fish any better when they don't even understand why they should adjust their game. If they become a bit tighter and learn how to fold 72o PF, it doesn't harm anyone. Not even bum hunters. 

[Stubbe-Unibet]

5 hours ago, MadAdo said:

@Stubbe-Unibet currently I can see following:

-> and 1 tournament BEFORE that it shown value of 20% (so according to my MATH skills I interpret it was like 9 out of 45).

So now comes the question: is it a case that displayed value is just result of a trim -> ((int) ratio) ? Based on my MATH skills (again) it should be displayed like 22% (10 out of 46) 🤔 Thanks for letting us know 😇

I haven't seen the code for this one, but 99% sure it just doesn't round up or down. As 10 out of 46 is 21.7%, that'd explain it at least 🙂 Should have one decimal really

[100HourChallenge]

21 minutes ago, Greggg said:

I'm not looking for fast wins, I'm just looking for wins. Small as they might be, but I want to keep them wins instead of transforming them to losses. Period.

Read again. I'm not saying they'll become sharks by using game lab. It might just help them wake up, that it's time to start improve their game and from then on you never know what will they'll do...I think that we can argue over it's impact, but I don't think there can be any debate about whether it makes games easier or tougher.

Also if you're saying this won't help bad players while at the same time good players don't need it / don't use it then why should we have / keep it at all?

Hi @Greggghave you looked at game lab? I cannot see how it could possibly improve anyone’s game... you may be spending a lot of energy/frustration on a trivial issue here 😉 

[Pionrj]

@GregggI don't even know how to say this that it would describe well enough what I think. Game lab is overall pretty useless atm. The effect it could havr on weaker players is minimal. No one will become a better player with looking at those stats Game lab has to offer. That being said, I really can't see hoe Unibet could improve it so much that it would be really helpfull for the fishy players. So, you're scared and uppset over nothing. If someone says that "you're calling too much re-raises PF" it really means nothing. It has simply zero worth if you don't know why.

 

Let's just see how this grows before judging them of "helping bad players". 

[Stubbe-Unibet]

27 minutes ago, Greggg said:

And I can only repeat and repeat myself again: even if it doesn't help that much at the moment, if it only has the effect of making them think about how they could get better and improve their game then the "damage" is more then enough...

5 hours ago, Greggg said:

I'm not looking for fast wins, I'm just looking for wins. Small as they might be, but I want to keep them wins instead of transforming them to losses. Period.

You’re contradicting yourself a bit here. 
Previously you said you prefer players to lose a couple hundred and churn indefinitely, rather than lose several thousands over a few years. Now you’re saying you just prefer small wins. 

Furthermore, I can’t follow your logic. It only really makes sense if liquidity isn’t part of the equation and there’s an indefinite supply of terrible players, which obviously isn’t the case.

It really can’t be discussed, the data is clear: anyone wanting to make a profit should appreciate any efforts to keep the worst players in the long run, and that’s both when it comes to monetary incentives and improving the level of play. 

It’s up to a certain degree of course, in regards to improving level of play, but everyone - perhaps apart from you - seem to agree that it won’t make a huge difference. 

[MadAdo]

I get a feeling that 1 of us did not like it. Nevertheless keep it up for the rest 🤫🤓😆

[startelver]

Game Lab does not do much to me, but I'm not very active player here. If the purpose is to get me more active I think I just pass.

But nice to see the Summer Games series coming , I love tournament series. 
 

 

[Groggy]

 

On 7/21/2021 at 2:58 PM, Greggg said:

You cannot assume that everybody is just as lazy. They might be, but there's no guarantee and even if only 1 out of 10 players would find motivation and actually start getting better and better the damage is already done. As I said: it won't create sharks, it is just a step in the wrong direction (now you have a game lab, tomorrow we might end up with poker tools being allowed and so on) that in the end could ruin what makes Unibet different from other sites...and it also CAN be that little, tiny push for some of those weak players to start study their games since they'll see how really really bad they are.

 

Face the reality. Since the collapse of poker market I think we are all "slightly winning/breakeven" players. I don't think there are many huge winners anymore anywhere. For example back then I was playing a lot actually thinking about becoming a full-time professional, now I play only low stakes and just for fun, because there isn't that much money left in the game, there isn't that much difference between the very good and very bad players. Everybody, even the weakest ones, know a thing or two about poker before sitting down to a table. Now imagine losing even that little advantage you still have against them. I cannot imagine any valid reason why would anyone love to play (risking his/her own money) against a better player when you can also do it against a weaker one. This is not laziness, it's rational behavior.

Also the reason that this would pay dividends on the long run, because it will make weaker players play more before quitting is also ridiculous, because YOU will be the one who will have to support the cost of teaching them since playing more hands against "educated" players means more loses to them and also more rake payed to Unibet.

I have a simple question (which - I know - should be addressed to Stubbe-Unibet  not to you): If Unibet really want to keep players for a longer time why don't they pay the price for it by offering better welcome bonuses, promotions, freerolls or whatever new players like instead of making us pay the cost of it by creating better players who play more hands against us? Is this fair? This is the typical case of transferring the cost of something to someone who doesn't even want that thing to happen.

So much of what you say is wrong. It feels like you're building this false narrative because you weren't able to make it as a pro. Assuming there are no huge winners just because you aren't a huge winner is incredibly arrogant and naïve. There are still huge winners; you just have to be significantly better than you did pre-solvers. The gap between the best and the worst players has never been bigger. I personally worry about poker sites ability to retain new customers because of how big the gap is; players new to the game often get destroyed, get disheartened and give up. If a little feature like the game lab bothers you it says much more about your own game than anything else. Anything that keeps new players in the game longer is good, regardless of whether they turn into crushers down the line or not.  

[Groggy]

I think the game lab is a good little feature. There should be an average all in equity feature and the 'Bad Beat' feature should be based on the equity you got it in with. Some of the hexapro advice is technically wrong (regs play a heavy limp strategy shallow and defend much wider shallow than suggested) but is useful for recreationals which is who it's aimed at.

[Pionrj]

@Stubbe-Unibet One little nice add to MTT-results would be, if it would also show average BIN. 

[Pionrj]

2 hours ago, Greggg said:

or they improve their game rapidly by studying if they have a little luck at the start and win something

Wrong

2 hours ago, Greggg said:

but they certainly won't keep playing at their poor level for long

Wrong

2 hours ago, Greggg said:

The rest of the player pool (the vast majority) is around the same level, without no big differences between their knowledge, and how much they lose or win from each other on a certain day is decided mostly by little things like tiredness, their playing style for that day/tournament, luck, alcohol consuming, how much their pet or children bothers them when playing

Wrong

2 hours ago, Greggg said:

Having big winner, super-skilled players is only a myth

Wrong

 

2 hours ago, Greggg said:

And even if that very good, big winner player does exist as you tell me, I would bet that he/she does not play here

Wrong

 

I just had to. All those things are just totally wrong. And it's a fact. There's thousands of pro players. Some play with smaller ROI, some studies and some are just super talented. And many pro players play (also) here. You'll naive if you really think that they won't take advantage of the soft(ish) and small fields. 

[comanimal]

There are dozens of different poker training sites which offer in depth training, which are also constantly being promoted by popular poker streamers day in and day out and then there is the tiny Unibet game lab which has a few stats along with at best questionable suggestions the customer will occasionally stumble in to. I am not sure you are seeing the big picture here 🤔

[Pionrj]

@comanimalBut, but, but! What if this thing, a few sentence, is what makes them study? Untill this moment they could not bother. But now, after Unibet made this. I can't even imagine. Maybe, in a week or two, no one can play poker for living any longer. It's impossible. Waste of time. It was a myth already. But now, everyone are at the same skill level. There's no talents. There's no hard working people with edge. Nothing.

 

Thanks alot Unibet. 

Edited August 2, 2021 by Pionrj

[ladyluckpls]

didn't bother to read all thread but the mtt gamelab section should show total bi's paid , abi, reloads,  amount made,.. now its a random number of cashes that say nothing. the lab could show +5k while in reality im down 15k

[GR1ZZL3R]

   I have to totally agree with the above comments.

   As a micro stakes fun punter I look at Level 1&2 stats and see I should raise more pre flop.       I know!

   I should bet more on the flop.                                                                                                                   I know!

   My calling range preflop is acceptable.                                                                                                   I know!

   It's hardly rocket science but I can't wait to get to level 3 to find the earth shattering secret to becoming a crusher, or is that level 4?   

   It's very worrying that there's going to be hordes of freerollers and micro stakes players advancing so far as to be able to be on a level with the vast majority of players by making some small and fundamental changes to their game.

    But looking on the bright side I could soon be a crusher myself.

 

[Pionrj]

@GR1ZZL3RI was going to post you a picture but those stats from L3 and L4 have been reset and I don't have a single hand played in CG this month. But I'll just tell you so you don't have to wait to be a average player. L4 will tell you, that you should play more hands from BTN than from UTG. L3 will tell you to 3-bet more often and fold to 3-bets and 4-bets way too often. You're welcome. 

Edited August 2, 2021 by Pionrj

[Groggy]

6 hours ago, Greggg said:

No problem mate, everybody has the right to have his own opinion. I'll also stand by mine...As far as I see today's poker there are certainly a few players who are absolute beginners, but they either leave very fast (even after a day or two, because of losing) or they improve their game rapidly by studying if they have a little luck at the start and win something...but they certainly won't keep playing at their poor level for long. The rest of the player pool (the vast majority) is around the same level, without no big differences between their knowledge, and how much they lose or win from each other on a certain day is decided mostly by little things like tiredness, their playing style for that day/tournament, luck, alcohol consuming, how much their pet or children bothers them when playing, etc. etc. I'm not saying that you cannot be profitable on the long run, but you certainly won't have a very high ROI against the average player.

Having big winner, super-skilled players is only a myth made for those like you to keep investing bigger and bigger sums in order to chase the glory (these are not Doyle Brunson's time anymore)...but why I say this is only a myth is because when you get better and better you'll stop playing for peanuts and you'll step up to higher and higher levels where better players are waiting for you until you'll reach your ceiling (and who knows, then maybe you'll also start seeing things like me) when you'll be left with only two options: either stay there and try to be a low ROI, break-even player (which is a waste of time) or you go back to lower levels, playing with a higher ROI, but for small sums (which is also a waste of time).  And even if that very good, big winner player does exist as you tell me, I would bet that he/she does not play here, but at a bigger poker room...because this is not really the place to play professionally for a living...so please, before talking about my "poker skills" ask yourself first why you're playing here.

And why this "little feature" (as you call it) bothers me? I told you already: because I'm not a friend of teaching anyone anything (especially in today's poker environment where there are already more then enough educational material on the internet) since it's bad for me, bad for YOU (!) and everyone else with a little experience, knowledge or any kind of little edge over the others, and also because as I said, I'm absolutely sure this "little feature" will be improved over time to offer even more information and help (I would bet on this)!

I play here and I also play 'professionally for a living' so I'm afraid your wrong there. I also personally know 2 pro's who became millionaires through poker, one of who won an online tournament for $780,000 earlier this year. I also know at least 3 more pros who clear $100,000 every year. You can stick to your opinion if you'd rather stay in denial, but I assure you it is wrong.

[comanimal]

4 minutes ago, Greggg said:

Exactly this is why I'm playing here and not there! I have chosen Unibet because back then they not offered or accepted any helping tools at all!

What are you talking about? You can use the knowledge you acquired at various poker training sites at any place you choose to play, including Unibet. Even though you cannot actually play poker in them, they are by far the most popular ways in which people improve their game. Seems like you're not actually interested in reading through the messages you're replying to.

[Pionrj]

@GregggAll those things are just factually wrong. They are based on something that has little to none to do with real life. But I can argue those with few sentences.

 

or they improve their game rapidly by studying if they have a little luck at the start and win something

There's no such thing as improving "rapidly". Some can learn faster, if they've got the talent(which is a myth, I know), but you are overestimating hugely this "luck-factor" which is somehow linked to their motivation to study the game.

but they certainly won't keep playing at their poor level for long

There's many many people, who have money but no intention to study poker to make more of it. Most of them are just gamblers who think that's it's all about luck. Some play purely as a hobby and looses on the long run but doesn't really give a sh*t. Both of these will keep on playing as long as they have some other income.

The rest of the player pool (the vast majority) is around the same level, without no big differences between their knowledge, and how much they lose or win from each other on a certain day is decided mostly by little things like tiredness, their playing style for that day/tournament, luck, alcohol consuming, how much their pet or children bothers them when playing

This is just full BS which tells me, that you either don't know anything of playing as a pro or you're unable to admit that you're not skilled enough or not willing to put any work to your own game. There's huge differences in player pools. Just go and spend one day in GG lobby and look from SharkScope different players and you'll see. If you know how to read a simple graph.

Having big winner, super-skilled players is only a myth

Just as an example: Eelis Pärssinen. He just told couple months ago that he has spent less than 10 hours studying the game with solvers. He must then be the luckiest player on the earth? Crushing both tourney and cash games. Live and Online.

And even if that very good, big winner player does exist as you tell me, I would bet that he/she does not play here

Again, you just don't know what you're talking about and that's a fact. There's even streamers who play poker for living and they play here. Even when they don't stream.

 

[comanimal]

How has the game lab changed giving everyone an equal chance of winning? If anything, it tries to give more people a more equal chance of winning! Though like I said before  - considering the other options out there to actually improve your game, I doubt these few stats and the few questionable suggestions that come along it has any tangible effect on the players skill level at all.

Seems like you have chosen a complete non-issue to bark at and I for one could think of so many ways to use that time better - maybe instead of worrying about other players' skill level, worry about yours - maybe I could recommend you a training site for example 😄 

Also if you're a bad reg and you know it, you deserve to get wrecked! It's the survival of the fittest after all 😉

[Pionrj]

8 minutes ago, Greggg said:

1. Most of them will improve their game rapidly if they taste winning, because they'll realize that what looked only a fun game until then can also bring them money! I was the same when I started so I'm speaking from my own experience. And I did not say that talent is a myth! But you overestimate it's power...this is poker not arts...

2.  I think you are living in a dream world. The situation you described happened 15-20 years ago. Today there are way less people of that kind.

3.  I honestly believe that from certain stakes upward there is very little difference between the players. Sure every time there's a millionaire or two who is totally bad at poker, but has the bankroll to play at those stakes for fun (no matter how much they lose), but I wouldn't call them poker players (they are rich gamblers).

4.  I don't know him, but he probably is. Maybe he has the Jamie Gold syndrome...wait a few years before you analyze anyone's bankroll.

5. They might play here, BUT not ONLY here! They generate their profit from other rooms with bigger tourneys, bigger traffic and more lucrative promotions!

Really? Do you really "believe" these things are as you say? Based on what? Trump's Twitter had a bigger fact% then this message.

 

1. You are one human. Not the majority. Not even a small part of it. And no, Poker is not arts. And that's why it requires different kind of talent. Otherwise, I don't think talents importance in anything can be overestimated.

2. No, again. I play weekly on 5 different servers. I see these guys all the time. I think you just don't know at all what you're talking about.

3. There's about 4 different groups of skill levels in every BIN level, excluding super high stakes. Again, you just don't know what you're talking about.

4. He's been playing since 2006. When is it ok to analyze him?

5. No one said they paly ONLY here. You said "I would bet that he/she does not play here". Can you admit that you're wrong in this at least? Or is you're strat full denial all the way?

[Groggy]

1 hour ago, Greggg said:

There are always exceptions in everything, but that doesn't change the fact that today's poker environment produces way less millionaires or "professionals" then a few years ago or even more years back in the past. And this trend keeps on getting worse. You might be a pro, but I would bet that you play at plenty of other poker rooms and don't make your living by playing here. You probably play a few tourneys here and that's it. Am I wrong again?

We've gone from myth to exception, we're making progress. What your saying isn't fact it's just speculation. I play here as my second site, taking advantage of promotions such as the hexapro one. There will be guys playing here who play exclusively on Unibet and clear $100,000 a year.

[GR1ZZL3R]

  

Call Preflop:                           System OK.                                          I'm doing something right. 🤣

Raise Preflop:                        Raise More Hands Preflop.              Which Ones?                          🤔

 

 

Bet Flop When Raise Preflop:    Consider Betting On The Flop

                                                        After Raising Preflop More Often.                     Why?  🤔

There are more questions than answers.

Thanks @Pionrj for the attempt to show me levels 3 and 4 but I'd already taken a wild guess that my Advanced Preflop Actions advice would be exactly as you said, my Position Meter will be pretty much spot on and my showdown will be average.  I can hardly wait for the big reveal. 🤣

It's not groundbreaking info but I think it has it's place, I like it and think it can only help newer players if only in a very limited way, what's wrong with that?

[Pionrj]

@GregggIf you're as good in poker as you are admiting you were wrong, I kind of understand your problem here. But I have good news! You can also take advantage of this awesome feature on Unibet called "Game lab". It might help you with your game.

 

Now, I have to leave this here. Some people are just like Trump. They can't see any wrong in their way to think. Not even when everyone else are arguing against him with very reasonable FACTS. All you get back is "I believe". But I tried. GL to everyone still going. You'll never make it tho.