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Again possible (or definite) SNG collusion


snufkins
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Hi,

Was playing a 4 euro SNG with players "Konsultti" and "Kudnc" who where definitely working together against other players, especially three handed against me. They where extremely loose and agressive but ALWAYS folded all-ins gainst each other while being very loose on their calls all-in against me. The ONLY two times as I could see they where all-in against each other they had the exact same hand as I will post below. Including a hand where I previously hand taking chips from "kudnc" so he/she went all-in with 818 left on small blind with big blind being 600 (so only 218 more for "konsultti" to call and possibly play heads-up with me when I was chipleader but instead folded..). This made it almost impossible for me as I where playing against two players working together against me, really boring to see, and I eventually ended up third place which should not have been the case if they played normal. I´ll post the hand where there should have been a definite call (especially considering how loose they where against me and others) and also the only two hands where they where all-in against each other and all suddenly called with K high and nothing and A high having nothing...

The text is in Swedish though, hope that workds anyway.

 

Spel #1435207313: Bord €4 SNG 5 Seat - 300.00/600.00 - No Limit Hold'Em - Total prissumma €19 - 17:45:45 2021/02/23

*** Antalet spelare ***

Platser 1: gr1mf4ndango (4794)

Platser 2: kudnc (893)

Platser 3: Konsultti (4313)

*** Blindar och knapp ***

gr1mf4ndango har knappen

gr1mf4ndango lägger ante 75

kudnc lägger ante 75

Konsultti lägger ante 75

kudnc lägger lilla mörken 300

Konsultti lägger stora mörken 600

*** Hålkort ***

Dealt in kudnc

Dealt in Konsultti

Delat ut till gr1mf4ndango [4k Th]

*** Innan flop ***

gr1mf4ndango lägger sig

kudnc höjer 518 med 818, och är all-in

Konsultti lägger sig

kudnc vinner 1643

*** Sammanfattning ***

Totalpot 1643

Säte 1: gr1mf4ndango: satsar 75 och vinner 0, nettoresultat: -75

Säte 2: kudnc: satsar 893 och vinner 1643, nettoresultat: 750

Säte 3: Konsultti: satsar 675 och vinner 0, nettoresultat: -675

 

Spel #1435205676: Bord €4 SNG 5 Seat - 250.00/500.00 - No Limit Hold'Em - Total prissumma €19 - 17:43:43 2021/02/23

*** Antalet spelare ***

Platser 1: gr1mf4ndango (3372)

Platser 2: kudnc (3790)

Platser 3: Konsultti (2838)

*** Blindar och knapp ***

gr1mf4ndango har knappen

gr1mf4ndango lägger ante 50

kudnc lägger ante 50

Konsultti lägger ante 50

kudnc lägger lilla mörken 250

Konsultti lägger stora mörken 500

*** Hålkort ***

Delat ut till kudnc [Kr 2r]

Delat ut till Konsultti [Kh 2h]

Delat ut till gr1mf4ndango [5h Tk]

*** Innan flop ***

gr1mf4ndango lägger sig

kudnc synar 250

Konsultti passar

*** Flop *** [3h 7r 4s]

kudnc passar

Konsultti passar

*** Turn *** [3h 7r 4s] [8k]

kudnc satsar 500

Konsultti höjer 2288 med 2288, och är all-in

kudnc synar 1788

*** Sammanfattning ***

*** River *** [3h 7r 4s] [8k] [Ah]

kudnc visar [Kr 2r], Högt kort, delad

Konsultti visar [Kh 2h], Högt kort, delad

kudnc vinner 2863 från huvudpot

Konsultti vinner 2863 från huvudpot

*** Sammanfattning ***

Totalpot 5726

Säte 1: gr1mf4ndango: satsar 50 och vinner 0, nettoresultat: -50

Säte 2: kudnc: satsar 2838 och vinner 2863, nettoresultat: 25

Säte 3: Konsultti: satsar 2838 och vinner 2863, nettoresultat: 25

 

Spel #1435199810: Bord €4 SNG 5 Seat - 150.00/300.00 - No Limit Hold'Em - Total prissumma €19 - 17:36:36 2021/02/23

*** Antalet spelare ***

Platser 1: gr1mf4ndango (3681)

Platser 2: kudnc (2315)

Platser 3: Konsultti (2274)

Platser 4: -Bratwurst- (1730)

*** Blindar och knapp ***

-Bratwurst- har knappen

gr1mf4ndango lägger ante 25

kudnc lägger ante 25

Konsultti lägger ante 25

-Bratwurst- lägger ante 25

gr1mf4ndango lägger lilla mörken 150

kudnc lägger stora mörken 300

*** Hålkort ***

Delat ut till gr1mf4ndango [Tk 5k]

Delat ut till kudnc [Ah 9h]

Delat ut till Konsultti [Ar 9s]

Dealt in -Bratwurst-

*** Innan flop ***

Konsultti höjer 900 med 900

-Bratwurst- lägger sig

gr1mf4ndango lägger sig

kudnc synar 600

*** Flop *** [4r 2s 7h]

kudnc satsar 1390, och är all-in

Konsultti synar 1349, och är all-in

Ickesynad satsning återlämnad till kudnc: 41

*** Sammanfattning ***

*** Turn *** [4r 2s 7h] [Js]

*** River *** [4r 2s 7h] [Js] [3h]

kudnc visar [Ah 9h], Högt kort, delad

Konsultti visar [Ar 9s], Högt kort, delad

Konsultti vinner 2374 från huvudpot

kudnc vinner 2374 från huvudpot

*** Sammanfattning ***

Totalpot 4748

Säte 1: gr1mf4ndango: satsar 175 och vinner 0, nettoresultat: -175

Säte 2: kudnc: satsar 2315 och vinner 2415, nettoresultat: 100

Säte 3: Konsultti: satsar 2274 och vinner 2374, nettoresultat: 100

Säte 4: -Bratwurst-: satsar 25 och vinner 0, nettoresultat: -25

 

I would very much apprciate a review of this session/game as I am positive they where working together in some capacity. Thanks.

@Andy-Unibet  @Stubbe-Unibet 

 

 

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Folding an all-in that's less then a small blind to call and the chance to play heads-up? But calling for all your chips with K high (K2) and A high (A9) which was the only two hands they were all-in against each other in the whole game and just happened to have the exact same hand and a guranteed split pot.

At first I couldn't understand how the game could go on for so long, given how aggressiv and loose they were playing, expecially against us others but also against each other PRE-FLOP and then folding. I was running good and got a big chip lead early on and was basically just plying tight and waiting for others to knock each other out but nothing happened so game went on and on. They were loose with all-ins againt me and the fourth guy and always folded each other. But then it became more than obvious what was going on, not least three handed. Really took the fun out of playing that game.

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Just also thought of this hand, happened earlier in the game after I had just made "kudnc" a lowstack. At the time it just seemed like an idiotic/weird play from "Konsultti" but in retrospect after getting to know them it was an obvious chip dump from "konsultti" to "kudnc". Why re-raise to 300 but fold when lowstack moves all-in with 545..

Spel #1435180350: Bord €4 SNG 5 Seat - 25.00/50.00 - No Limit Hold'Em - Total prissumma €19 - 17:11:47 2021/02/23
*** Antalet spelare ***
Platser 1: gr1mf4ndango (4048)
Platser 2: kudnc (545)
Platser 3: Konsultti (2524)
Platser 4: -Bratwurst- (1850)
Platser 5: veelgrip (1033)
*** Blindar och knapp ***
kudnc har knappen
Konsultti lägger lilla mörken 25
-Bratwurst- lägger stora mörken 50
*** Hålkort ***
Dealt in Konsultti
Dealt in -Bratwurst-
Dealt in veelgrip
Delat ut till gr1mf4ndango [Ts 4k]
Dealt in kudnc
*** Innan flop ***
veelgrip lägger sig
gr1mf4ndango lägger sig
kudnc höjer 150 med 150
Konsultti höjer 275 med 300
-Bratwurst- lägger sig
kudnc höjer 395 med 545, och är all-in
Konsultti lägger sig
kudnc vinner 895
*** Sammanfattning ***
Totalpot 895
Säte 2: kudnc: satsar 545 och vinner 895, nettoresultat: 350
Säte 3: Konsultti: satsar 300 och vinner 0, nettoresultat: -300
Säte 4: -Bratwurst-: satsar 50 och vinner 0, nettoresultat: -50

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Looks like more than enough evidence to me, I will be surprised if security check will find them innocent.

A9 vs A9 hand alone maybe could be explained, but K2 vs K2 doesnt make any sense at all of course. You also mentioned that these were the only two times that they went all out against each other, and they just happened to have same hand twice, what a coincidence, just like in case I posted.

The other two hands seems to be even more damning. Perhaps Konsultti could try to defend himself, saying that its the first time he is playing poker or that he misslicked. But what are the odds that he missclicked terribly twice and saved kudnc in both situations.

4€ SNG collusions seems to be even more obvious than 10€ ones. I got "oh, we have same hand, lets go all in" type hands, but no "oops, missclicked again" (unless they just werent that obvious). Makes me wonder how well they mask it in 25€.

Btw, what if "kudnc" stands for: Konsultti's Uncle Doing Naughty Collusion

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wow, some people vehemently refuse to use their brain (not even trying to hide their cheating). I played the same stakes just a little later on the same day, I wonder if I encountered these two guys as well.

 

@Andy-Unibet Does Unibet refund money lost to cheaters? Alternatively, what happens with these people's funds?

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The poker rules (Found here) cover all the possible outcomes.

Fraudulent Behaviour

18. In case of player attempted to, or has engaged fraudulent, dishonest, unlawful or improper activity using the Unethical Play or any other game manipulation, automatic gameplay, Chip Dumping, Player Collusion or the making of any fraudulent payment, including without limitation, use of a stolen credit card or fraudulent chargeback or money laundering – Unibet shall take action as it sees fit, including but not limited to:

18.1. Seizing the funds within Player account

18.2. Suspending or terminating Player account due Terms infringement

18.3. Disclosing such information (including the identity of the Player) to financial institutions, relevant authorities or Unibet 3rd party partners to prevent fraud and guarantee the security of Unibet poker

18.4. Taking legal action against a Player

19. Collusion is a situation where two or more players attempt to earn an unfair advantage by sharing
knowledge of their cards or other information at the poker table. Any player who colluders or
attempts to collude with any other player while using Unibet poker will be prohibited from using
Unibet poker or any other related Unibet services and the player’s account may be suspended or
terminated immediately.

20. We will do our best to investigate complaints received against players suspected of collusion

21. We will not be liable under any circumstances whatsoever for any loss you or any other player may
incur as a result of collusion or other unlawful activity and we will not be further obliged to take
any other actions in any event of suspected collusion

Chip Dumping

22. Defined as a situation when any player intentionally loses a hand in order to deliberately transfer
his/her chips to another player. Any player who participates or attempts to participate in Chip
Dumping with any other player – including being the recipient of funds may be suspended for
investigation or permanently banned using any of the Unibet services. In such circumstances Unibet
will be under no obligation to refund to player any funds

In the real world, it depends to be honest. All fraudulent accounts are suspended from the poker client without exception but after that it's looked at case by case as to teh next steps,  depending on a number of factors. Funds in the account, severity of the fraudulent activity and damage caused are some of the factors taken into consideration. The Player Safety team deal with the additional actions taken and refunding so we don't see a lot of what happens at present.

It's something we're looking at changing this year so that internally we have a better understanding of the process and we can be more transparent with the affected customers and the custoemr base in general about our efforts to eliminate cheating and how we refund players.

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Poker Janitor

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@Dennis__ wrote:

wow, some people vehemently refuse to use their brain (not even trying to hide their cheating). I played the same stakes just a little later on the same day, I wonder if I encountered these two guys as well.

 

@Andy-Unibet Does Unibet refund money lost to cheaters? Alternatively, what happens with these people's funds?


 

If you don't ask, you might get :laugh:

It's always a shame for the company, the realtime borderpatrol aint working like its oughta work visually 😏

Edit. The security people running simulations how to screw things up in general.. Are pretty good at their job, yo

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Great stuff, glad to hear that.

It is strange how they did not care about being obvious about their collusion. Don't know if they didn't know it is not allowed or if they just thought the rest of us is dumb enough not to notice. The hands I posted was just the most obvious examples, looking back at the game really everything they did had the strategy of working together to bleed the rest of us while shifting chips in between them both. Although I got really good hands that game it really made it impossible to play, although it was an interesting experience to see how much more difficult it was to play against two players working together. 

When I was the big chipleader early on I shifted focus to another table thinking they would knock each other out rather quickly given the way they were playing and just couldn't understand how the game could still be going on with blinds at 150-300. Now it makes more sence though 🤣 

Glad to hear they got suspended quickly though! 👍 

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@Andy-Unibet Do you have any idea how long has this been going on? I'm pretty sure that I've played in the same table with this "konsultti" months ago. Not that I think that there was anything shady then, but for transparency it would be nice to know how long people can keep on stealing before getting caught.

 

E. And another thing I was wondering while playing cash games for the moving up -campaign. How much of this happens there? There's few players who joins the table, posts one bb and leaves immediately. And this has happened more than once. The reason could be anything but it seems like they are trying to find the "right" table. It could also be that there's someone who they don't want to play with. Idk. 

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@Pionrj wrote:

@Andy-Unibet Do you have any idea how long has this been going on? I'm pretty sure that I've played in the same table with this "konsultti" months ago. Not that I think that there was anything shady then, but for transparency it would be nice to know how long people can keep on stealing before getting caught.


Relax normally give examples of hands where collusion has taken place in the report sent to myself and Player Safety. For this specific case the earliest example given was from 18/09/2020 and the latest was 23/02/2021 from a total of 7 hands from 7 games were included as examples in the report.

The frequency of the collusion is scored and in this case it was low so the accounts were not doing it every game they played. When I did a check this morning the games where they were in the same game were few and far apart so although the period between the first and last example is large, they were only doing it on the odd game and during infrequent sessions.

Both accounts were actually losing players in all formats outside SNGs and one had played significantly more games than the other so it may be the case that they only did it on the off chance they were both online rather than it being a targeted attack each session. They were also some less obvious techniques during play.

 

 

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Poker Janitor

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@Andy-Unibet wrote:


@Pionrj wrote:

@Andy-Unibet Do you have any idea how long has this been going on? I'm pretty sure that I've played in the same table with this "konsultti" months ago. Not that I think that there was anything shady then, but for transparency it would be nice to know how long people can keep on stealing before getting caught.


Relax normally give examples of hands where collusion has taken place in the report sent to myself and Player Safety. For this specific case the earliest example given was from 18/09/2020 and the latest was 23/02/2021 from a total of 7 hands from 7 games were included as examples in the report.

The frequency of the collusion is scored and in this case it was low so the accounts were not doing it every game they played. When I did a check this morning the games where they were in the same game were few and far apart so although the period between the first and last example is large, they were only doing it on the odd game and during infrequent sessions.

Both accounts were actually losing players in all formats outside SNGs and one had played significantly more games than the other so it may be the case that they only did it on the off chance they were both online rather than it being a targeted attack each session. They were also some less obvious techniques during play.

 

 


What country are our heroes from?

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It's no relevant but "Konsultti" at least is almost certainly Finnish. I'm too but haven't even thought of doing any shady stuff in these games. The gain is just not worth it.

 

But does Unibet change knowledge of these cheaters with other companies or is it illegal? I'm pretty sure that someone who cheats on some site, does it in other sites too. 

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