What do you do ?

[pirahn]

What do you do ? Playing €50 sat to a €250 ticket. 5 Get ticket with 6 remaining. Im second with chip count of 18k. BB is in trouble with a small stack and large blinds. I get kk and raise to 4k. Chip leader shoves all in, everyone passes. What do i do ?

[psrquack]

Fold. You have a healthy stack and opponents who are in trouble. Call haven't got the value. Try to keep your BB and watch the hunger games.

[jonny2192]

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@pirahn wrote:

What do you do ? Playing €50 sat to a €250 ticket. 5 Get ticket with 6 remaining. Im second with chip count of 18k. BB is in trouble with a small stack and large blinds. I get kk and raise to 4k. Chip leader shoves all in, everyone passes. What do i do ?

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Its the cursed KK fold no matter what.

[Mynona]

Fold, even with another good pair other than KK, it's not worth the risk to lose your nearly guaranteed ticket.

[pirahn]

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@jonny2192 wrote:

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Its the cursed KK fold no matter what.

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All my cards are cursed

[psrquack]

Btw what happened? Did you get the ticket?

[Magicadil]

If you have a healthy stack then raise/folding kings might be a mistake. You have to take in to account chip leader might shove over you so it's best to just fold Kings preflop, completely shut down and save the 4k

[radge1]

I reluctantly fold...problem is though with the UK and UO games if you play too safe the short stacks grow and it comes back to bite you. :scared:

[jonny2192]

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@radge1 wrote:

I reluctantly fold...problem is though with the UK and UO games if you play too safe the short stacks grow and it comes back to bite you. :scared:

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More so with the UK tour sats, you can be sat with a healthy stack and them blinds climb really fast.

Seen a lot of games where it seesaws between leeaders, when the short stack doubles each time.

[pirahn]

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@Magicadil wrote:

If you have a healthy stack then raise/folding kings might be a mistake. You have to take in to account chip leader might shove over you so it's best to just fold Kings preflop, completely shut down and save the 4k

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Shutting down is a reasonable suggestion. However as @jonny2192 points out, it only takes a couple of rounds to bite you in the ass.

[Nestabear]

I agree with ... fold no matter what, them kings are cursed !!!

 

                                

[mayc77]

Fold!!!

 

[GotWhatItTakes]

 Give us some chip and blind stacks, please :)

Is a lot easier to decide whether to call or to fold then 🆒

[pirahn]

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@GotWhatItTakes wrote:

@pirahn Give us some chip and blind stacks, please :)

Is a lot easier to decide whether to call or to fold then 🆒

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Start of hand im on 18k, chip leader 36k. Small stack just over 4k. The other 3 are between 8k and 12k. Blinds are 800/1600

[Andrew]

We know that raising is +EV, and we know that open shoving 11bb is +EV.  We also know that if we fold, we have a decent chance of getting the seat.

Chip leader is one million miles ahead of us in seat-equity, and has very little risk of losing out even if he loses this specific hand.  But by opening to 2.5x, we grant him fold equity.  If not against this specific hand, then against most of our 2.5x opening range.

So to deny the chip leader fold equity, I think we need to either shove or fold.  Which we do will depend on the distribution of chips between the remaining players.  If you're all close together on 8-12bb, I definitely shove.  If there're 1-2 players on 2-3bb, I definitely fold.  Somewhere inbetween and it's just a judgement call, but given that we're so  close to the top of our range, I err towards shoving a lot.  

Even though we should be the tightest player at the table, we are easily called by 88 or 99 or whatever by someone on 7bb, or by last place with a wide range.

[pirahn]

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@Andrew-Unibet wrote:

We know that raising is +EV, and we know that open shoving 11bb is +EV.  We also know that if we fold, we have a decent chance of getting the seat.

Erm, i still use a abacus to work things out.

[pirahn]

What I Did: Even if the other guy had AA, there is no need for this play as prizes are all of equal value. Ill call himg Mr W. He is in my opinion being an ARSE. So i call. He has something like 73os. I win the hand. Next hand mr W min raises to cover the short stack on small blind.Short stack folds. I am a child of a vengeful god. Being Indian thats a thousand vengeful gods. I go all in and mr W passes. My target is now mr W. I wait for him to be bb and sm whereupon i go all in. When it gets to the small stack i pass, and luckily for me small stack triples up. Mr W is still in a healthy position but on his blinds i go all in and he passes. The guy to my left on his bb has only a few extra chips. I pass with my 60k plus and go all in on mr W next hand. Mr W must now realise I am after him and him alone. He now has no choice but to get involved against me. 3 times i went all in against him and he got lucky. Several rounds were completed with this cat and mouse chase before the original short stack was out. I very rarely change my alias and i hope next time he realises how i play. I had similar many years ago for seat to vegas main event.On that occasion, the mr W of that table did not join me in vegas

[MathrimC]

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@pirahn wrote:

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@GotWhatItTakes wrote:

@pirahn Give us some chip and blind stacks, please :)

Is a lot easier to decide whether to call or to fold then 🆒

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Start of hand im on 18k, chip leader 36k. Small stack just over 4k. The other 3 are between 8k and 12k. Blinds are 800/1600

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Open folding seems very bad, because you have to put pressure on the small stack in the big blind. Since he has to shove really wide with the stack he has left, you're in great shape to end it right here. Your chance to win this hand against his shoving range is bigger than your chance to win the seat if he gets a walk, so you have to play this. However, given the ICM pressure on you, you need evade any confrontation with anyone else at the table, and you want to loose as little chips as possible when that happens. So I think a minraise would be the best move. When the bigstack shoves you have to fold. So I agree with your play, only I would have minraised instead of 4k.

I don't understand the move by the big stack by the way. He's risking half of his stack, while denying you the chance to bust the small stack and end the tournament. I think anything that isn't a monster he should fold, and If he has a monster, he would be much better of calling and trying to bust the small stack in a three way pot instead of pushing you out, because you're basically on the same team here.

[pirahn]

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@MathrimC wrote:

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I don't understand the move by the big stack by the way. He's risking half of his stack, while denying you the chance to bust the small stack and end the tournament. I think anything that isn't a monster he should fold, and If he has a monster, he would be much better of calling and trying to bust the small stack in a three way pot instead of pushing you out, because you're basically on the same team here.

Agree, Read above.

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[FeelsBadMan]

This Mr W story actually explains alot of the oddities I saw in these sattelites! On behalf of all cautious nits out there, we thank all the Mr W's and the Vengeful Gods for trying to share their hard worked equity with everyone else at the table with these games of chicken :)

Personally, If I knew the chipleader is playing hands I would fold and let him take the role of executioner of the shorties and if he's just folding to the seat then I would shove in this situation. 

 

[GotWhatItTakes]

I agree with Andrew. KK is such a strong hand, I don´t want to minraise/fold kings in that spot. The chipleader probably knows that you have to fold almost your whole range to a 3bet shove. There is only one hand you are afraid of (Aces) and it is very unlikely that there are KK and AA 6handed. 

I don´t really understand why you are still openraising. Do you want to induce? If so, maybe minraising would do the job as well 😏

[pirahn]

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@GotWhatItTakes wrote:

I agree with Andrew. KK is such a strong hand, I don´t want to minraise/fold kings in that spot. The chipleader probably knows that you have to fold almost your whole range to a 3bet shove. There is only one hand you are afraid of (Aces) and it is very unlikely that there are KK and AA 6handed. 

I don´t really understand why you are still openraising. Do you want to induce? If so, maybe minraising would do the job as well 😏

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Im raising enough to cover the small stack and inviting big stack to join me end the game with 2 against 1. I dont want short stack to see the flop and have the option of passing and playing 1 more hand. 

[pirahn]

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@FeelsBadMan wrote:

This Mr W story actually explains alot of the oddities I saw in these sattelites! On behalf of all cautious nits out there, we thank all the Mr W's and the Vengeful Gods for trying to share their hard worked equity with everyone else at the table with these games of chicken :)

Personally, If I knew the chipleader is playing hands I would fold and let him take the role of executioner of the shorties and if he's just folding to the seat then I would shove in this situation. 

 

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Now where is the fun in that aproach.

As it happens mr w was playing sedately untill he got to 36k where upon he decides he is mr Bond

Is it sexist to presume its a MR Bond rather than MRS bond

 

[MathrimC]

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@GotWhatItTakes wrote:

There is only one hand you are afraid of (Aces) and it is very unlikely that there are KK and AA 6handed. 

I don´t really understand why you are still openraising. Do you want to induce? If so, maybe minraising would do the job as well 😏

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I don't agree. If all else were equal and everyone would have the same stack, the equity to win a seat would be 83% (5/6). Since we are second in chips, our equity is actually bigger than that. I'm not an ICM calculation expert, but I suspect somewhere between 85% and 90%. That means we should be afraid of the big stack calling with any hand against which we have less than 85% equity, since in that case our chance to win a seat has diminished as compared to when the hand started. We need even more than 85%, because we're not yet guaranteed the seat if we win the all-in. Basically any 2 cards except Kx-off don't allow us to have that equity. So equity wise we should always fold against a big stack shove.

(ofcourse all of this is ignoring the other motives and assuming you would play to maximize your own equity)

[jonny2192]

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@GotWhatItTakes wrote:

I agree with Andrew. KK is such a strong hand, I don´t want to minraise/fold kings in that spot. The chipleader probably knows that you have to fold almost your whole range to a 3bet shove. There is only one hand you are afraid of (Aces) and it is very unlikely that there are KK and AA 6handed. 

I don´t really understand why you are still openraising. Do you want to induce? If so, maybe minraising would do the job as well 😏

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Even players with AA as the big stack would just call and check down except the nut hand normally, as at this stage its definetly the table vs the small stack.

If it was a normal bubble and you are playing for first then play different but in a sat you are all getting the same prize.