Fourteen Years Of Heartache In The Microverse, Is The End In Sight?

[Estzen]

@GR1ZZL3R in GGnetwork, there are many guys with 300k winnings, 1million winnings etc and being super losers. Some guys just play super big games out of their bankroll, sometimes they hit their win .. and that boosts their "earning" - while they are net down in all graphs they have. 😄 In my old PC I had a screenshot posted some 665k down line that is going ... impressive. Probably lots of loans back there too.

 

[Samba]

Nice to see some strat discussion. I just said to 3b those hands as an experiment, similar to open folding AA. @Estzen I bet I could show a profit 3betting K6o pure at 100bbs vs CO over a large sample at micros, but I know it isn't standard. You know what else isn't standard? Peoples 4b bluff % CO vs BU

[Estzen]

Would like to see data 😄 . @Samba

[Samba]

@EstzenHaven't used MDA for over a year so my info could be wrong now, but it's still working for me. The guy who I used showed that you could 3bet from BB ATC vs BU and it would do better long term than folding pre up to 400nl. (On untracked sites)

Mainly because of the lack of 4b bluffs. Doesn't mean you need to triple it off. You're making a vacuum play that  loses less money than folding vs population.

Data was mined from GG tables.

 

[GR1ZZL3R]

'Ow do.

    Before we go any further I feel I have to address the mental side of this game a bit more. I am truly grateful for comments on how to improve my actual game but unless I can start handling the pressure a bit more competently it's like 

 

 

On 22/04/2024 at 14:27, HardGain said:

 The mental part is for sure one of the key points. 

   I'm with you there.

 

On 23/04/2024 at 22:53, KrustyTheClown said:

I think improving your mental game is much tougher than improving your technical game.

     I totally agree.

 

On 24/04/2024 at 09:12, Samba said:

I feel like your mental was pretty strong, you seemed stoic.

   That pretty well sums me up but you've obviously never seen the stupid stuff I do, why oh why is poker the one thing guaranteed to tilt me sooner or later. 

 

On 24/04/2024 at 09:12, Samba said:

Tommy Angelo has advocated open folding AA as a mental experiment just to see if you can disconnect yourself from the game entirely. I've read some of his stuff a long time ago and have done it.

   I've done it as well but 1 hand out of hundreds of thousands hasn't helped. 🥴

 

On 24/04/2024 at 10:42, Estzen said:

150k hands is also showing, that right now you are just not beating that game. This is not varience.

   I'm not totally convinced on that argument. I enjoy Matt Berkley and crews discussions on variance and the fact that virtually every winning player is part of the survivorship bias. Very good players, I'm certainly not claiming to be one, can run horrendously for very long periods and eventually just give in, even a million hands is not necessarily a true reflection of variance. 

   As far as I can see the mental game is not just learning to accept the bad beats and suck outs that are part and parcel of the game, that's certainly part of it and I have to improve, if only to stop that sense of injustice or entitlement that can send  me down the slippery slope of ruin. Maybe it's something in me that's not wired correctly but I'll give a quick example of what I'm sometimes fighting against. 

   I've been playing a while, nothing really good or bad has happened but I'm on a single buy in ticket so can't top up ( currently on my last ticket so will not do that ever again 😒) and then I'm dealt TT, It's the best hand I've had in this session apart from a pair of Jacks which won me one and a half BB. I'm already over an hour in, and I decide then and there I'm going with it come what may. 

 

   

   A min raise is immediately discounted and I pause and 3 bet. There is a snap 4 bet and from all previous reads and actions I KNOW  immediately that I'm beaten. I can be as patient as the next guy, I built my reputation at snooker as being The Grinder, after Cliff Thorburn, giving nothing away, and  able to block one end at cricket when the wickets were tumbling by simply not playing a shot, even though I wasn't a very good batter, but protecting my wicket as though my life depended on it, yet poker brings out the worst in me. I snap all in, there's a snap call, and in one, I think, avoidable blip I lose another stack. All my experience, for what that's worth, table reads, villain reads, etc etc etc tell me to fold but I ignore them all and get shown QQ. 🤮   Should I ignore my reads and shove anyway, which I did,  should I call, should I fold, does it depend?  Am I making too much of this, even though it seems to happen so regularly? 

   Sometimes I do wonder if I'm making too much of a mental issue out of things like this, and I know these things happen to us all, but a bit more reading might give me some more insight. 

   Time for tea so ta-ra for a bit. 🥩

 

Side Note

 

   😎

 

 

[Rushbie]

On 24/04/2024 at 12:23, Estzen said:

no1 will build the pots for you, you have to do it yourself. 

I don't often quote others, especially Estzen ;p, but in this one i think i have to. 

Yes.

You gotta give action to get action.

And that doesn't mean the moment when you're in a pretty hand, but the time and hands before it.

Edited April 25 by Rushbie

[Estzen]

Quote

  I'm not totally convinced on that argument. 

1. Millions of hands down? No. 

2. When "EVEN" High Rollers have their swings , well aparently you cant have some winning 30BB/100 at 1kNL either - so the swings are much easier to come because everyones winrate is lower.  PEOPLE HAVE LESS EDGE AGAINST EACH OTHER, EVEN WHEN THEY HAVE AN EDGE. 

3. 4NL is like 2NL in Unibet really. No you cant be winning and have 150k hands in total... I can believe someone being 50k hands long  downers and so ... but 150k and not up... no its not varience, never is. 

4. The TT is an easy fold specially when Multiway and vs 4bet .... thats not really even a read, that 4NL reality. 

 

ANyway, while these things maybe hard to admit, the focus isnt that "Hey, you suck" . The focus is: Look, right now you are bleeding money... and you can change it if you work on your game - actually. Actively. 

Timeouted with JJ in sloberknocker qualify. but I hope it was worth a fold to write it 😄 . 

[KrustyTheClown]

6 hours ago, GR1ZZL3R said:

 I've been playing a while, nothing really good or bad has happened but I'm on a single buy in ticket so can't top up ( currently on my last ticket so will not do that ever again 😒) and then I'm dealt TT, It's the best hand I've had in this session apart from a pair of Jacks which won me one and a half BB. I'm already over an hour in, and I decide then and there I'm going with it come what may. 

 

   

   

I think you kinda realize yourself that this type of thinking is very bad. 
Even apart from this TT hand in particular, you should always re-evaluate when you "get new info".
It's like going broke with AA in a 3bet pot no matter what happens.
Is it a cooler or is it misplayed?

In the particular hand the cold 4bet is obviously super strong. Especially when it's a non all in 4bet.
If villain were spazzing, he'd mostly be 4bet shoving his 57bb instead of making it 25bb.
But the thing is also that you have only 62bb.
You've pointed it out yourself. You can't be playing scared money. Let alone even having a full BI.
Anyone not playing a 100BB stack is always an immediate target.
No matter the stakes, I think having 25BI in your account is the bare minimum if you want to take things a bit more serious 🙂
If you don't, it will put you at a disadvantage, no matter how good or bad you are.
Even people that crush the game will have regular 10BI+ downswings and some 20BI+ downswings once in a while.
But looking critical at your game is essential to improving.
After every session I have at look at every pot I lost over 40BB.

But if I were "forced" to play only a single table, I'd probably be spazzing all over the place 😄
 

[SShcherbyna]

There are several types of players:
1. @Estzen style.

2. @Livertool style.

3. @GR1ZZL3R style.

[GR1ZZL3R]

14 hours ago, KrustyTheClown said:

I think you kinda realize yourself that this type of thinking is very bad. 
Even apart from this TT hand in particular, you should always re-evaluate when you "get new info".
It's like going broke with AA in a 3bet pot no matter what happens.
Is it a cooler or is it misplayed?

   It is bad, I agree.

   I would always take AA all the way no matter what but I am learning not to be the guy I laugh at but still do the same. 

   I open to 4BB, get called. I bet 3/4 pot on the flop, 6BB and am called. On the turn I bet 3/4 pot again and am raised, a big warning sign. Back in the bad old days I would have shoved, mostly these days I would fold, this time I called. 

   I check the river and he effectively shoves, I fold. It's a horrible looking board but I see more and more when others call, even on less dangerous boards (not me these days) villain always has it. At least my AA was only partially cracked so does not count to the 43 times in a row claim. 😀

   Villain raises 3BB, two calls including me, because he was an over active short stack and I had position. If he'd have been a reg or I was OOP I would have folded or maybe raised, depending. Villain bets 5BB (1/2 pot) on the flop, we both call. On the turn he bets 7.5 BB into 25, 2nd shortie folds and I call again, I've added a gutter to my flush draw. The river brings the flush and he only bets 10BB into 40. My reasoning for re-raising is: Villain initially liked his hand but when met with resistance both on the flop and turn he begins to be unsure. The smaller bets indicate he's got a hand but not very good now, a flush or even a straight for him and he would have shoved, so I shoved. He thought quite a while and eventually called.

   I don't know whether I played either hand well or not, I'm fairly pleased with both, but my point is the difference a few mental exercises can make. A few months ago I would have lost my stack with the Aces and done the same as the villain with the AA.

   I know it's bad when you have a short stack, others simply target you more as I do to others, so I promise only to play when I can auto top up now.

14 hours ago, KrustyTheClown said:

But the thing is also that you have only 62bb.
You've pointed it out yourself. You can't be playing scared money. Let alone even having a full BI.
Anyone not playing a 100BB stack is always an immediate target.
No matter the stakes, I think having 25BI in your account is the bare minimum if you want to take things a bit more serious 🙂
If you don't, it will put you at a disadvantage, no matter how good or bad you are.
Even people that crush the game will have regular 10BI+ downswings and some 20BI+ downswings once in a while.
But looking critical at your game is essential to improving.
After every session I have at look at every pot I lost over 40BB.

     I know I'm a target with a short stack as I tend to target them myself. I have over €100 in my account, 25 buy ins, and €100 of BPs  now (after my latest winnings 🥳) so promise to always play with auto top up. 

   

14 hours ago, KrustyTheClown said:

But if I were "forced" to play only a single table, I'd probably be spazzing all over the place 😄
 

   The more I look at it the more convinced I am that the slow pace of 1 tabling is too slow. It's the twenty minutes of not playing a hand (genuinely card dead, not just too tight) that causes the "Come Hell or High water" attitude and self destruction. Three tables it is then, and auto top up, and many many buy ins.      

   Bye for now.

🫖

[GR1ZZL3R]

And better than your spellin! 😂

 

  I wonder how long it will be before they get so desperate for me to pay £13.99 to find out my I.Q rating that they'll start offering a discount? Or tell me my I.Q. is remarkable. Or exceptional. Or astounding. Or something. 

[GR1ZZL3R]

 

      It was only a matter of time and who was more patient.

 

All this from a ten minute 30 question assessment, remarkable!

   The question is now "Is 50% enough." 😂

[GR1ZZL3R]

   Signs of growth. 

   From a distance there seems to be a lack of progress anywhere, either in the garden or on the felt.

 

A distinct lack of green...

 

...but closer inspection provides encouragement.

 

Repotting some old favourites...

 

...cutting out the deadwood...

... and tidying up round the Rocky 2 edges.

     

 

 

   The first four weeks on the felt have been similarly lacking in growth, a graph swinging up and down like a demented yo-yo on steroids, after a great start, reality biting once again.

 

   However after a little bit of reading, yet another reset on my playing set up, (three tables and auto top up) and 2 sessions of swingless poker there's cause for encouragement. ✅

 

 

 

 

 

Flop of the day.

Sometimes sadly they're not biting.

 

 🍻

 

 

 

 

[Estzen]

The key of improvement is progession. How would you answer this question: 

What is the difference between you playng poker right now vs one year ago? 

When I ask this question myself, I tend to think year by year, that I was horrible compared to what I know. It is usually because the progress just develops so much that you understand how shallow the past has really been. 

The mental side can be a big hurdle, but it can be also a correlation due to just constantly making mistakes and hence losing. Therefore, stress levels increase because the losing is with constant intervals. So its not only about developing a mental game directly, but understanding that less developed understanding  about the game leads to lower mental game as a correlate. 

As right of right now, having a losing winrate its comforting to see that you are about €200 euros in with BP+money. Old school buyin rules were like 20 buyins for cash. Ive heard many use like 50 buyins. In one podcast I heard one crusher say he plays with 100 or 200 because it takes a lot more stress away and downers are much more "affordable". Playngs NL 500, and 1Ks. that freakin a lot. ... 

My point is, with negative winrate, 20 buyins would be ridiculous in any sense 😄 . And at least you are not handing down NL10 to give your money away faster. Which some guys would certainly do. So at least somewhat protected - but if there is no improvement ... nothing will really change. 

Btw, proabably feels really shity to get 10buyins a win and then see it all going away. It constantly feels like a validation that "I can do it". Yet the most important fact isnt actually this graph or a day. The most important question is: "What did I dont know 1 week ago?" "What Have I really changed?" ... From where will my winrate improve?

What  have I really done to archive it? 

Or is it . "Last time it didnt go too well, but I ll keep tryng maybe this time it goes better" <- thats just blind hope with no real difference. Its like pooring water from the sink that is leaking and hoping that the leak has just erased by itself. And you can still fill the glass from time to time, but the bills are a lot bigger. 

I hope it theres a gist for focus. May your game improve like plants in the garden - but plants need water to do it. 

 

[GR1ZZL3R]

   👋 and thanks for the feedback. 

 

22 hours ago, Estzen said:

The key of improvement is progession. How would you answer this question: 

What is the difference between you playng poker right now vs one year ago? 

   I think there's been a lot of differences in the last year but I'll restrict it to what I feel is the main one. "Tight is right" is the mantra you hear all over the place but I got sick and tired of playing tighter and tighter and still losing. I had a "Eureka" moment when I realised it was not being tighter and tighter that harmed my game but the way I played the few hands I did. At one stage I was down to playing less than 10% of hands but still losing. Not playing a hand for 20 minutes and then getting stacked with KK was not because I was not tight enough, it was because I wouldn't lay down KK under any circumstances, even the worst possible run outs imaginable and the most aggressive betting against me. A widening of my pre flop raising, indeed a tightening of 3 bet calling, especially OOP, but basically trying to get to the flop in the most favourable circumstances, HU, in position and with the betting lead. A huge change. 

 

22 hours ago, Estzen said:

As right of right now, having a losing winrate its comforting to see that you are about €200 euros in with BP+money.

   It just happens to be what it is, you're right that to a losing player br management is meaningless, 1,000 buy ins wouldn't be enough in the long run. I happen to have +25 buy ins right now for €4 but if I lost it all today* I could top up and go again. The BP's are a reserve now to be used for special events, maybe community stuff.

 

22 hours ago, Estzen said:

Btw, proabably feels really shity to get 10buyins a win and then see it all going away.

   It does.🥴

 

   I've ditched the blind hope but the validation (graphs, win rates etc) are on the back burner, at least in the short term. What does anyone think about watching their bankroll, how often does anyone check or update? I've played 2 days without checking flops, hands played or profit and loss, (except for a vague feeling, only clocking time spent) intending to ask for my stats on a weekly basis when everything will be updated.

   * Maybe back in the bad old days (last month.). I've played today nearly 2 hours, about 60BBs up after 20 minutes. That's usually enough for me to call time and lock up a win but the new me decided to carry on. Ten minutes later I was back to moaning, after 3 quick suckouts.  "I knew I should have stopped, how could that moron call with 3rd pair then hit his second pair on the river? This always happens, every time, how do they hit the flop every time, why do they draw and always get there and my draws never do, it's ridiculous."  These and other rants could sometimes produce the dreaded tilt monster and lead to more and more damage, but today I was just determined to get at least an hour's play in. I guessed at this stage I was about 2 buy ins down, probably wiping out any gains made yesterday, and eventually it took nearly another hour, but (I'm guessing again) I came out with a small but significant profit. Significant not because of the size but the fact I played on and didn't tilt (much.) One session is not a sample size and there is so far to go, but what I've learned today is "It's not bound to end badly." How I react when it does could be a long chapter. 

 

 

Flop of the day.

Only a small pot won but it looked pretty. 🙂

 

Turn of the day  

This led to an all in by villain on my right, bet, 3bet, 4bet, shove, with a bare J. I held.  😄

River of the day.

Again not a huge pot but still pretty. I hoped he had the flush but no. 😂

 

 

🍻

 

  

[Estzen]

Very nice! 

Well, I didnt mean that bankroll is meaningless when you are losing, what I meant was that. At least you have some kind of roll to play with. Which is good to see.

In terms of time sessions and cash. 

Imo you should leave games only when you feel that you will lose your head.. 

Otherwise, cash grind is like one big eternal session of hands that go, on-and-on. Dont weight it over, how much you are up or down from one day. Would you have more money if you would have left? 

You would also have less hours then. And these hours matter. 

Really would like you to get breakin even and ++. 

Just learn every week/day .. and make notes, make conspects. 

Get better. Put in the hours. 

Time management is relevant of when you start to be less focused .. or feel that you are not in the right mind. - otherwise’ dont quit your games by "protecting the money". Just doesnt work that way. Specially when you get a good table... dont leave it, smash it. 

/ I went to a bar poker game with 6 euros today. I busted with AK , one all in was T6s, the other was JTs. Both called my jam. I just wanted to see the place, im in another town , just chilling alone. AirBnB etc.  Ill skip the Title Fight and stuff like that tomorrow but probably will play ay least something because it shouldnt be day off but it kinda is. 😆🤣. My point is there is nonsense constantly happening, be better than nonsense, and find hours to put in volume. Volume is your poker life line. 

 

 

[GR1ZZL3R]

   Well I've managed a full week playing with the br hidden, and not so much as glanced at it. It's not been a great week but after a fair start I've had a few days struggle, and I'm really surprised that I've ended up in front, a sheer guess was level at best, but I'll take the win.

If it's going to be a slow steady climb then I'll accept that, at least upwards is better than down. 🙂