3K in a month at the micros personal challenge

[hascorel]

I like leading  here , dont like c/r but i like  just  x/c too   to  keep the fish in the pot ..as played i just x thst turn because you have a semibluff hand vs a station ,so imo is worthless to bet here  becasuse his not folding 😃, and you need some FE to make this play +ev... just c/c , hit  and punish him 😃

[taft]

Thank you for the opinion, I disagree turn and I did get the fold, I have noticed people often peel flop with unconnected aces or something, and even though this is the opposite of a scary turn, should actually make them think I am less likely to have a king, I still like betting here and getting them to drop whatever Asomething they happen to have there, or if they are on a draw with me, the board pairing should get me some folds as well.

As far as the semibluff hand on flop ... funny thing about those combo draws is that you're actually better off than a made hand on the flop mathematically if you get it in with two cards to come and either draw completing would win you the hand, so it's not really a semibluff on flop.

[hascorel]

Is not about that hand ,is about frequency here ..if you just double  station like that  you will lose long run ..i know you dont agree with me but dosent matter beacause this is a loosing play  wthever ,and your hand otf is a semibluff is not a made hand ...please study some time before come here and  write things like : I disagree turn and I did get the fold :... i am sure if he calss and you brick river and lost to K3 you will never disagree (and have that feeling :i knew it that have 3x and dont fold )

[taft]

Lol  you're telling me you don't like my reasoning and thus I am not allowed to have that opinion? (re the turn bet) That's an interesting angle, why do you think he has a king and why do you think he's a station?

About that "made hand" vs semibluff, you don't know what you are talking about sorry. Look it up. An openender+ flush draw all in on flop is a favorite to win over let's say a pair on flop. and thus, it's not a semibluff hand.

[hascorel]

Made Hand

 

Refers to a hand the value of which is a pair or higher, often used with regard to pocket pairs in no-limit hold’em in which the player has already “made” a pair even before the community cards have arrived. Used in contrast to a drawing hand which still needs to improve.    

 

Semi-Bluff

 

A bet or raise made with what is likely an inferior hand at the time, but which has the potential to improve on a later betting round (e.g, with a drawing hand that could improve if the draw is completed).

Last post ...is not worth to  keep typing 

 

 

 

 

[taft]

It's a question of semantics! I am talking about how you are a FAVORITE TO WIN OVER A MADE HAND at that point with your drawing hand and THUS are not semi-bluffing but are betting for value. DO you disagree?

[taft]

Yeah, wow, sorry about the caps everyone :D I think I got a bit emotional there, sort of embarrassing to read that back (I regret the caps, I don't regret what I said)

Was actually interesting arguing with hascoreal, too bad it turned into a fight.

Far as progress on my goal, then it's not going too well, Some runbad, some playbad, A LOT of not paying enough attention to the tables while playing, but not really coping at the cashgames right now, so I've been playing 2€ and 4€ sngs because I fear going broke atm. Those have been surprisingly soft but realistically I can't make 3K in under a month with them so I'm hoping to get it together at the cashgames asap (I don't expect 10SNGs to be as soft, if they were that would be awesome and I might still have a chance of making my goal :D)

I have accidentally played (and busted) some 25€ mtts which is higher than the limit I notice I set for tournaments for this challenge. Sorry about that. I am not sure that I won't do it again either, I hope that's fine.

[ArtyMcFly]

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@taft wrote:

Hahaha, why do I get the feeling that some of you believe I can't play poker at all.

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Good read.

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taft wrote: I noticed you quoted ArtyMcFly and he was clearly joking

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 Bad read.

 

Your apparent thought process, and/or your explanations of it, in some of the hands is non-standard. I'd be surprised if you can beat that level if this thread is anything to go by. But I'm often wrong.

[Magicadil]

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@ArtyMcFly wrote:

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@taft wrote:

Hahaha, why do I get the feeling that some of you believe I can't play poker at all.

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Good read.

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taft wrote: I noticed you quoted ArtyMcFly and he was clearly joking

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 Bad read.

 

Your apparent thought process, and/or your explanations of it, in some of the hands is non-standard. I'd be surprised if you can beat that level if this thread is anything to go by. But I'm often wrong.

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Standard isn't the only way to play though. If everyone plays standard then why play at all. Table will be filled with a bunch of robots.

Look at Qui Nguyen for example. Most unpredictable player to win the WSOP. Now before you say 'that's a losing play in the long run' His opponent played somewhat standard (and at times scared) during heads up and got completely destroyed.

[taft]

Okay, , you weren't joking with the eight high? You don't want to get money in with the combo draw on flop? Do you also believe the opponent has a king once the second king rolls off on turn like hascorel seemed to? Idk, I would consider these non standard thought processes rather than mine, but okay. I do also kind of see what you're saying in a way, I have been mentioning stuff like timing tells which is silly, and there have been other things like that. But but, I will defend that 8high and what I did with that to the death lol. You felt that was non standard? 

[taft]

I wanted to add that don't worry I will be posting the results breakdown by limits and games after the month is done (4th Nov to 4th Dec) so we will see whether I beat what, but I have to say  I think Arty was rather looking to say I am stupid about poker in general not that I make unusual plays. Had he wanted to say I play in a non-standard way, I would take it as a compliment, because the standard I see from bad regs at these limits is pretty appalling, and exploiting bad regs is sort of the whole point for me.

No offence taken , but I hope you come back and answer some of the questions I had.

[ArtyMcFly]

Playing in a non-standard way can definitely be profitable, (it will confuse/tilt the regs for a start) but I think you misunderstand some of basic theory about where the money comes in poker. It doesn't usually come from playing big pots with weak hands.

Mostly I was amused by the "basically turning it into a bluff" comment. You can't turn 8-high into a bluff. It was never anything but a bluff in the first place.

I'll keep following the thread and will look at any more hands you post, but I've temporarily banned myself from giving too much advice on how to play better. Good luck!

[taft]

Okay , I just feel that since we're ahead of say a one pair hand on flop it's not a bluff (on the flop). I understand that I don't have a winning hand in my hand yet but if I'm 57% to draw into a winning hand versus that likely pair then technically I am doing better than that pair, how am I bluffing? Turn changes that because now he's less likely to have a king and is more likely to have a stronger fd for example, so now it's an 8 high and bluff, also because there's only one more card to come.

You feel that reasoning is stupid?

[Magicadil]

Mathematically you're ahead of a 1 pair hand on flop but you don't take that into account when determining whose ahead in the present moment.

I'll give you an example. Say you have two kings, I have two aces. The dealer shows you that river is going to be a King. Mathematically youre 100% because you've seen the board and you know river card. However, in the present moment youre still behind.

Therefore that hand youre talking about is still a bluff even though youre more likely than not to improve to a winner.

[hascorel]

"'Mostly I was amused by the "basically turning it into a bluff" comment. You can't turn 8-high into a bluff. It was never anything but a bluff in the first place.''

 

noooo...he had a made hand Arty 🤣

[taft]

Please explain to me how I'm behind if I'm 57% to win.

I don't get it.

Why do I not "take that into account when determining who is ahead at the present moment"? To me, if I am ahead 57% at the present moment, then I am ahead 57% and they are behind 43%. Does maths not apply to poker and it's just a question of do I win this hand showdown now, without any more cards to come?

I feel you're all being a bit stupid tbh. :D

[Magicadil]

You're 57% to win if turn and river are revealed which they haven't yet, so it's an event that will occur in the furure therefore the hand is still a bluff.

(You have only a high hand, not made)

I'm not going to get too technical because I hate all the in depth poker talk. It's better to process it then to explain it.

[taft]

 they have not happened yet, but they WILL happen if we are to see a showdown, so it doesn't really matter that they haven't happened yet. We cannot be 57% ahead at some point and be behind AT THE SAME TIME, it is a logical impossibilty.

 can you come in here and explain to me if we can? I don't trust these guys lol. We have an openender+flushdraw on flop, we are assuming that the opponent has one pair, are we behind on that flop and thus bluffing if we bet? (turn we are no longer assuming he has a pair necessarily and it's a different story, but talking about the flop. We are are assuming to be 57%. Should we also consider ourselves behind at the same time?)

 

[Magicadil]

'I don't trust these guys'

Pretty rude statement. Each of us play far higher stakes than micros so why would we lie.

Okay I'm done trying to explain anything to unappreciative (place any word you like here)

 

[taft]

 omg I was joking. How can you be so sensitive. I apologize if I offended you, I disagree with your reasoning is all.

Did you not see the "lol" there? Seriously. 

As far as who plays which stakes I used to beat 400 NL on this very site by quite a decent clip last year, the reason I'm playing the micros now is because I want to. Please calm down.

[Magicadil]

I'm not offended.

Thanks for saving me the headache of having to cone back to this thread.

Good luck with your goals. Bye 🆒

[taft]

Okay , I'm glad you're not offended, why are you up and leaving though with what I feel is an attitude (saving you the headache etc)? :D I see another logical discrepancy here. Thank you for the well wishes though. I'm not too good of a conversationalist myself especially when it comes to poker, and I guess my threads can be an annoying read occasionally because of that, I am a bit annoyed with this whole thread myself :d so yeah, good luck to you as well, but I don't get why disagreeing with something (with reason) makes me an unlikeable personality for many of you, I have been insulted several times over in this thread now, not by you Magicadil, but by both hascorel and Arty, with nary an explanation other than maths.does.not.count.you.would-not.win.if.this.was.3.card.poke.stop.wasting.our.time ... And it's not 3 card poker, so I feel you're all wrong.

[FeelsBadMan]

OMG, this entire argument over semantics, who cares .... what you call it doesn't matter at all as long as your reasoning for doing something is correct.

Ck2MtAhWkAAkUo-

I nitpick over everything and I still think this is an overload of nitpicking... And so many pages over this that I can't even find where it started from 😃

I'm not familiar with cash game dynamics but from a tournament players perspective where stacks are shallow and tournament life is important (for the opponent :P ) here's how I see it (and I'm running through this more for myself to figure out what the hell everyone is thinking, not to tell someone else hurr durr this is how it is) ;

Yes you have the best chance of winning if you go to showdown right now, but when you bet you kinda also want him to fold his equity share of the pot, stuff like bad top pairs, mid pair (which you're not that far ahead of) dominating draws (behind) since picking up dead money is probably a bigger deal than the small equity edge, so I guess you could call it a bluff, sort of. Kinda like the situation where you have a small pair on a low board and your opponent has a ton of broadways, you bet, you're ok with it if you get more value from those hands, you're also ok with it if you pick up the dead money and he folds his equity share of the pot ... soooo...

I guess playing multistreet poker in cash games, sometimes you have to play a turn where a ton of cards make you have worse equity than your opponent at that point even though he hasn't improved, so now you're definitely semi bluffing when you bet the turn, so I guess this situation is what they're nitpicking about that you don't have a made hand ...

Also I guess in deepstack poker there could be situations where playing it slower against certain opponents (or maybe all the time, idk, I'm bad at cash) , you might be able to win more by minimising losses when you don't hit, so it might be a superior play compared to stacking off with the small equity edge, maybeee ... so this is probably another reason why they're nitpicking. 

So I guess you all might have valid points, but yall are fighting like if you were playing tug of war, but you're pulling on different ropes...

And the attitude in this thread ... uhhh ... I know every single poker player thinks thay're better than the others but cmoooon ... I know better you're wrong I play this, no I know better you're wrong I play this, no I'm even betterer you can't even better my better ... Everyone can learn something from anyone, even the best players can learn something from the worst if their head isn't too far up their own *** ... But in the end this isn't even about skill, just stupid semantics :dissatisfied: , or maybe I missed something, this thread got so big and deviated soo much from it's original purpose that I don't feel like reading it all ... and now I posted a wall of text adding to the pointless clutter :wonder: 

LE: Just noticed after posting how much "I guess", I guess it's too much xD

[taft]

Your post is not clutter at all  thank you very much for taking the time :)

[ArtyMcFly]

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@taft wrote:

Okay @ArtyMcFly, I just feel that since we're ahead of say a one pair hand on flop it's not a bluff (on the flop). I understand that I don't have a winning hand in my hand yet but if I'm 57% to draw into a winning hand versus that likely pair then technically I am doing better than that pair, how am I bluffing? Turn changes that because now he's less likely to have a king and is more likely to have a stronger fd for example, so now it's an 8 high and bluff, also because there's only one more card to come.

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This is mostly semantics, but I'm pedantic about this kind of thing.

If the hand finished on the flop, 8-high would not beat one pair. It is not "ahead", since it needs to come from behind (suck out) to win. In the same way, 22 is technically ahead of JTs pre-flop, even though the latter is a slight favourite. The JTs still has to improve post-flop, ergo it's not ahead pre-flop.

An additional point that while your draw might be an equity favourite vs one pair, it's not a favourite vs a set. Top set would be ahead and needs to hold vs draws. Hands that need to hold are ahead. Hands that need to suck out are behind. Simple.

 

Further, I'd add that a basic definition of a bluff is "A bet that makes a hand that is beating you fold". A basic definition of a value bet is "A bet that gets called by hands you're beating".

Example bluff: You 3-bet with KQs pre-flop, and villain folds A9o. You just made him fold a better hand, so you made a successful bluff.

Example bluff #2: You 3-bet with AK pre-flop and villain folds 22. This is another bluff, since 22 would beat ace high at showdown.

Example value-raise: You 3-bet with AK, and get called by AQ.

 

When you have 8-high, the only hands you are beating are 7-high (or 8-high with a lower kicker). You can't get called by hands that you beat, so you can't make a value-bet. You can make some hands that are beating you (random Ax, Qx, Jx, small pairs) fold, so betting with 8-high is clearly a bluff.