Cashback casino rewards but not for poker in Belgium!!!???

[ladyluckpls]

@Stubbe-Unibet

 

hey team,

I just received an email telling me I get a cashback based on my casino action from the past week..

0.06eur for every point I earned with a maximum of 5000 points or 300eur ( One point is earned for every €12 played in the Casino and/or Live Casino)

So my question, how is it possible that casino players in Belgium receive cashback based on their play and poker players

are excluded from all promotions?? Isn't it the same logic? get value back for spending cash in Unibet products..

Can u please look into this and see if poker players can finally enjoy something back for all the rake they pay?

thx in advance!

 

 

[FrmVstr]

Rake back is a diminution of the fees and not a bonus deposit.

So where is the problem ? 

Belgian National Lottery offers free tickets to the registred players.

Rake backt should be allowed.

[Stubbe-Unibet]

Afraid I can only refer to:

[FrmVstr]

The regulator told you to remove the bonus deposit offer because it is forbidden by the belgian law.

Diminution of the fees via rake back is not forbidden by the law, so it is allowed.

The job of the regulator is to tell what is forbidden by the law and not what is allowed.

The guidelines are clear : everything is allowed excepting what is clearly forbidden by the belgian law.

[Jeroenvg]

There isn't any excuse any more to not offer rake-back. Seeing this offered in casino while poker is left out is hypocritical and gives a sour feeling about Unibet. I used to promote Unibet and it was for sure number 1 broker, this is not the case anymore, a lot of other sites offer rake-back and promotions. I really think how poker is being handled will hurt the company long term strategy. It doesn't reflect that Unibet, is really there 'by players, for players'. 

[Stubbe-Unibet]

1 hour ago, FrmVstr said:

The regulator told you to remove the bonus deposit offer because it is forbidden by the belgian law.

Diminution of the fees via rake back is not forbidden by the law, so it is allowed.

The job of the regulator is to tell what is forbidden by the law and not what is allowed.

The guidelines are clear : everything is allowed excepting what is clearly forbidden by the belgian law.

There's a glitch in the matrix. Not sure what parallel universe you're describing here, but it's pure fictio.

"The job of the regulator is not to tell what is allowed". Of course it is; by at least clearly defining what is not allowed. You're making it sound like the guidelines and law for bonuses/promotions is crystal clear in Belgium 😅  You're also making it sound like the regulator will just accept what they believe to be a violation, if it's not crystal clear in the law text that it isn't allowed 😂 
It's obviously totally fine to not know the first thing about how gambling regulators operate, but then you should probably adopt another approach than the above cocksure one.

42 minutes ago, Jeroenvg said:

There isn't any excuse any more to not offer rake-back. Seeing this offered in casino while poker is left out is hypocritical and gives a sour feeling about Unibet. I used to promote Unibet and it was for sure number 1 broker, this is not the case anymore, a lot of other sites offer rake-back and promotions. I really think how poker is being handled will hurt the company long term strategy. It doesn't reflect that Unibet, is really there 'by players, for players'. 

Lots of other sites offer rakeback? Which other licensed site has a proper poker loyalty system paying up to 50% rakeback? Which other site got a true loyalty system with cash rakeback? 

We do have promotions, but only the ones that are believed to be compliant.

This is all just really weird. You are making it sound like we don't want to offer any promotions in Belgium. Promotions on a network product, where in the majority of cases it wouldn't lead to any increase in bonus spend but an uptick in revenue - sure, that does sound terrible.

 

[FrmVstr]

When a compagny makes an illegal promotion, the regulator contacts the compagny and asks to remove the promotion.

When a compagny makes an allowed promotion, the regulator does not contact the compagny to confirm that the promotion is allowed.

The regulator does not have a list of allowed promotions but only a list of forbidden ones.

So, the job of the regulator is well to tell what is forbidden by the law and not what is allowed.

It is not a "fictio" in a "parallel universe".

It is the reality in Belgium : eveything is allowed excepting what is clearly forbidden by the belgian law. 

In Belgium, the law about promotion is the same for gambling, betting and poker.

Making allowed promotions is the job of marketing teams and lawers.

The orignaI post shows that the lawers of Unibet think that loyalty is allowed for the casino (like the lawers of other compagnies working under the control of the belgian regulator).

The conclusion should be the same for poker.

I repeat that the problem was the free bonus deposit offer.

Without free bonus deposit, a lot promotions are allowed in Belgium.

Sometimes promotions are free, sometimes the player have to pay little opt-in fees (0.01 €) to participate.

Diminution of the fees via rake back is not forbidden by the law, so it is allowed.

[Stubbe-Unibet]

1 hour ago, FrmVstr said:

When a compagny makes an illegal promotion, the regulator contacts the compagny and asks to remove the promotion.

When a compagny makes an allowed promotion, the regulator does not contact the compagny to confirm that the promotion is allowed.

The regulator does not have a list of allowed promotions but only a list of forbidden ones.

So, the job of the regulator is well to tell what is forbidden by the law and not what is allowed.

It is not a "fictio" in a "parallel universe".

It is the reality in Belgium : eveything is allowed excepting what is clearly forbidden by the belgian law. 

In Belgium, the law about promotion is the same for gambling, betting and poker.

Making allowed promotions is the job of marketing teams and lawers.

The orignaI post shows that the lawers of Unibet think that loyalty is allowed for the casino (like the lawers of other compagnies working under the control of the belgian regulator).

The conclusion should be the same for poker.

I repeat that the problem was the free bonus deposit offer.

Without free bonus deposit, a lot promotions are allowed in Belgium.

Sometimes promotions are free, sometimes the player have to pay little opt-in fees (0.01 €) to participate.

Diminution of the fees via rake back is not forbidden by the law, so it is allowed.

I'm well aware of the framework.

Should say I'm not really commenting in an official capacity here - in regards to compliance and regulations - and anything that doesn't have to do with poker, I won't even comment on. I don't work with Belgium specifically but rather all markets where we offer poker, and to me personally, Belgium does seem like the - by far -  most challenging and odd market, when we're talking bonus and promo restrictions. All regulators really should look towards Spillemyndigheden in Denmark or the UKGC. 

"I repeat that the problem was the free bonus deposit offer." Where do you have this info from? Link to official info? 🙂 That's not my understanding, but I'll admit I haven't seen the original communication from the regulator. 

I obviously agree with you guys that rakeback/poker loyalty - generally speaking - is a really weird loyalty system to ban, as it isn't linked to loses, doesn't push players to put in additional volume to the same extent a leaderboard might, is on a skill game, is mostly targeted the really high raking players which are very rarely big losing players (keeping variance in mind) etc. Unfortunately, that just doesn't change anything, but I want to make it clear that I'm in your corner here and I'd love to be able to offer some sort of rakeback in Belgium. Being the only ones in Belgium with rakeback would be an excellent USP, but you should probably ask yourself why no one is offering rakeback today 🙂 

[FrmVstr]

Since a decision of 20th february 2020 of the Council of State of Belgium about the difference of treatement by the law between physical and online operators, the regulator asked the online operators to remove some promotions for 1st march 2020.

All the operators removed free bonuses deposit.

Some operators removed some other offers.

Some operators maintained some other promotions.

Some promotions reappeared or were created.

So it is clear that the big problem was the free bonuses deposit.

[Stubbe-Unibet]

So in other words you've actually got no clue but you are just speculating while making it sound like it's a fact 🙂

And it's very far from even being reasonable speculation, given the situation in the market and no one offering rakeback. 

[Jeroenvg]

15 hours ago, Stubbe-Unibet said:

There's a glitch in the matrix. Not sure what parallel universe you're describing here, but it's pure fictio.

"The job of the regulator is not to tell what is allowed". Of course it is; by at least clearly defining what is not allowed. You're making it sound like the guidelines and law for bonuses/promotions is crystal clear in Belgium 😅  You're also making it sound like the regulator will just accept what they believe to be a violation, if it's not crystal clear in the law text that it isn't allowed 😂 
It's obviously totally fine to not know the first thing about how gambling regulators operate, but then you should probably adopt another approach than the above cocksure one.

Lots of other sites offer rakeback? Which other licensed site has a proper poker loyalty system paying up to 50% rakeback? Which other site got a true loyalty system with cash rakeback? 

We do have promotions, but only the ones that are believed to be compliant.

This is all just really weird. You are making it sound like we don't want to offer any promotions in Belgium. Promotions on a network product, where in the majority of cases it wouldn't lead to any increase in bonus spend but an uptick in revenue - sure, that does sound terrible.

 

Like everything in Belgium nothing is black and white, there is always room for interpretation. The gaming commission is about the protection of the player. Poker is a product in which beside lottery and scratch cards there is least chance on problematic addiction(Van Rooij, 2017).
Lottery: 6,8%
Scratching cards: 7,1%
Poker: 12,2%
Sport: 17,7%
Casinogames: 22,7%
Gambling automates: 26,2%
This study is used by the gaming commission itself. 
Offering a form of cashbackin casino games and not in poker just doesn't make sense. There also isn't any article that RB is prohibited in Belgium, and in fact GG is offering personal RB deals up to 65%, and Stars is also offering some form of RB; for about 3 years allready!!! Without any warnings. 
 

 

[Stubbe-Unibet]

16 minutes ago, Jeroenvg said:

Like everything in Belgium nothing is black and white, there is always room for interpretation. The gaming commission is about the protection of the player. Poker is a product in which beside lottery and scratch cards there is least chance on problematic addiction(Van Rooij, 2017).
Lottery: 6,8%
Scratching cards: 7,1%
Poker: 12,2%
Sport: 17,7%
Casinogames: 22,7%
Gambling automates: 26,2%
This study is used by the gaming commission itself. 
Offering a form of cashbackin casino games and not in poker just doesn't make sense. There also isn't any article that RB is prohibited in Belgium, and in fact GG is offering personal RB deals up to 65%, and Stars is also offering some form of RB; for about 3 years allready!!! Without any warnings. 
 

 

@Jeroenvg

Stars do not have RB.

GG have disabled fish party in Belgium (and they usually don't do that, if there's any possibility to interpret it in a way that it'd be compliant; see Netherlands as an example). To my knowledge, they are doing RB a pretty shady way by not promoting it anywhere on their site? - in fact I can't find any info online about what you're describing and I've only seen it mentioned on some poker Discord servers and here (as a rumour and nothing more).
The regulator has been giving warnings, based on onsite content. So even if GG might be running some shady RB solution, their offering is not exactly an argument for RB being compliant - the exact opposite in fact. 

[ladyluckpls]

hey guys, thx for taking the time to look into this.

From all the given replys, I feel like there was no answer given to the question: what is the ratio for allowing loyalty bonusses for casino players ? ( so points/cash, whatever.. based on play or even leaderboards (!!) I see pop up every now and then)  

Once a clear answer to this question is given: why can't the same ratio be used for poker as the legislation is the same for casino and poker?

Also can't u just contact the Belgian gambling commission with proposals regarding to poker? As to have something preapproved and compliant before launching it? 

I have seen Belgian only mtt's in the past, like during world cup, with huge overlays and basically giving away tickets. why can't this be done more regularly?

 

[Andy-Relax]

You know when you were little and you parents told you to stop doing something, and you said why, and their response was "..because we said so".

The Legal team are our parents. 

[Stubbe-Unibet]

27 minutes ago, ladyluckpls said:

hey guys, thx for taking the time to look into this.

From all the given replys, I feel like there was no answer given to the question: what is the ratio for allowing loyalty bonusses for casino players ? ( so points/cash, whatever.. based on play or even leaderboards (!!) I see pop up every now and then)  

Once a clear answer to this question is given: why can't the same ratio be used for poker as the legislation is the same for casino and poker?

Also can't u just contact the Belgian gambling commission with proposals regarding to poker? As to have something preapproved and compliant before launching it? 

I have seen Belgian only mtt's in the past, like during world cup, with huge overlays and basically giving away tickets. why can't this be done more regularly?

Contact for approval. You would think it would be possible, but no. Generally speaking, we can never contact any regulators to get approval of promotional mechanics or even get clarification on unclear laws and requirements (an exception would be Romania, where this is exactly how it works; we send terms for approval first). If rules are crystal clear, this is not a problem, but unfortunately that's rarely the case, especially not when market re-regulated somewhat recently (regulators often need a few years to issue clarifications and just refine the rules in general). 

Again, I can't comment on anything that doesn't have to do with poker.

Spewing overlay. We're not a charity. Just giving money left and right in MTT's would be silly - MTT players are not the one paying for the servers, developers etc. And there are legal limitations in some markets as well, in terms of overlay/added money. I might feel with you guys - more cash and hexa players than MTT - but that doesn't mean we can just throw all business logic (and 💰) out the window.

[zyklon0]

You can contact de kansspelcommissie yourself and ask this question if Unibet can’t/won’t. I did this to address the same issues for freerolls. Which are completely banned by unibet in Belgium, while other countries do have them.

The reason why freerolls are not allowed is because they are linked to the loyalty system. If they were available to everyone without a link to loyalty, it would be no issue for the gaming commission. I think with the rakeback system there is the same issue. It’s linked to the loyalty system which is not allowed in Belgium. If it were a fixed percentage for everyone, not linked to loyalty. Like in the casino. It is perfectly legal.