Where does the money go.

[GR1ZZL3R]

A curiosity has got me baffled. Can anyone explain, please.

A few days ago playing PLO I vagely noticed a player had a decent stack one minute then a normal stack shortly after and I couldnt recall him losing a hand. A few minutes later, after hed won more money, suddenly his stack was back to normal, and again I couldnt recall him losing. I shruggedit off ( im getting older memory lapses etc) but its happened again this morning with the same player. I noticed it vaguely but after my session I decided to check hand histories to be certain and sure enough he was sat with over 18e at the end of one hand having not played it and only 10e at the start of the next hand. I wasnt aware you could salt away any money without leaving the table so could anyone explain please. 

[psrquack]

My best tip is he had 18 euro sometimes in the past but due to your older memory lapses a lag appeared and you could see his older balance and due to the overload of dates the updated balance showed up slower.

[GR1ZZL3R]

Sorry but that doesnt work. Ive checked the hand history thoroughly. Hes sat there with 18e. The next hand in the replayer 45 seconds later he has 10e. There is no action on either hand. My memory isnt that bad but its there in front of me in the history. Please try again.

[Rushbie]

The unfortunately still possible ratholing is quite common during daytime here at low stakes especially. It doesn't take than just some seconds to get out of the table, and rejoin it with the 1bin again :wonder::sad:
Maybe you didn't just notice the short disappearance?
Edit. also can't recall does the joining show at hand history, haven't done that much CSI stuff.. 😏

 

[GR1ZZL3R]

Maybe but Im not totally convinced. your saying hes off the table and straight back on with a normal stack and this keeps happening. Straight back on the same table, same seat when other seats are empty, all in the blink of an eye. Mmmmmm, Ill keep my eyes open but still not sure. Other sites you have to come back with same amount in a certain time. Curioser and curioser.

[GR1ZZL3R]

@Rushbie The hand history shows him sat at the table all the way through and shows someone else joining halfway through. The start of the next hand shows him sat there with smaller stack that he has NOT lost. There just ISNT  time to leave the table and rejoin again between hands.

[Rushbie]

That happens. You can pay attention to the numbers of players at the main lobby list. If it quickly changes 1 lower when someone leaves your table, and soon comes back, you can be almost sure it's the same player even when it was with different alias. Very common noob mistake to "hide" yourself when the amount of players is low 🤣
Also the tables are filled from shorts to full ones i'd quess..
Edit. Oh ok, well then got no idea.. But there's plenty of time to leave and come back during a hand, that's for sure. Try it out sometimes.

[GR1ZZL3R]

OK I will accept that for the time didnt know you could rathole like that with it being random allocations. Just seemed odd but Ill keep my eyes open. Thanks.

[FeelsBadMan]

The reason why he ends up at the same table and same seat is because the system forces him at the same table and same seat. It's like that to prevent hopping from table to table looking for soft targets. But at the same time this makes the ratholing more annoying because people always see them doing it rather then just having them move to another table.  

[GR1ZZL3R]

Thanks @FeelsBadMan I will bear that in mind

[pittpitt]

some change their profile realy quick...then come back at the same table !! it takes 2 3 fast click ,this is it !

you shouldnt be realy worries ,if they were that profitable they obv wont do that stuff

[nekoneko]

Guys , i guess he's talking about the fact that sometimes people don't even appear to leave the table at all. I saw that too lol.

One hand they have lets say 18 euro, then poof they have 2 euro without apearing to have left or having to sit in again.

I was wondering at start too how tf can they take money out without leaving.

But noticed that sometimes if you leave during a hand and you join back, the game puts you back as you never have left at all from that table. Maybe is that ?

And ye blame it all on the software that forces you to go back to same table.

I feel that once you leave it should be a random chance of joining any table that is not full.

[GR1ZZL3R]

Saw it three times this morning, same guy. as soon as he hits 2-3 profit sits out next hand. the instant the cards are mucked his money changes to 10, twice back in same seat once ina different one, so I tried it myself (purely research) and it worked. Guess I know whats going on now and can concentrate on my own game. Thankyou.

[DaVitsche]

The problem is, that it is actually very profitable. Or at least keeps the game simple for yoruself.

Say you have 4 players, A (150bb), B (50bb), C (100bb) & D (150bb)

If B plays a hand, the effective stacksize in the hand for him will be 50bb, everyone else has to play against him as if stacksizes are 50bb.

When player C plays a hand, and B folded, the effective stacksize for him becomes 100bb, so they play against him as if the effective stacksize is 100bb.
BUT, if B is still in the hand, B can take advantage of these differences in style. You should (and probably will) play different when the SPR (stack to pot ratio) is smaller than against a full stack.

Even preflop has a simple example:
BTN: B (50bb)
SB: C (100bb)
BB: D (150bb)

If BTN opens, and you want to exploit the 50bb stack strategy, SB 3bet/flatting range & sizings will look different, but this put you in a weird spot vs BB, because if he knows you're adjusting vs BTN shortstack, he can then adjust by cold4Betting wider etc. So to gain EV from BTN, you have to give up EV vs BB.
The same scenario is true for BB, if he adjusts, then BTN can re-adjust again.

So the only player that can make "perfect" decisions is BTN with the smallest stack. C & D have to give up EV, to gain EV in another spot, and that is extremely hard to do right, sometimes even impossible.

Now try to imagine how complex this becomes if we add another 150bb stack, in that case B is favourite over everyone else and C has advantage over B & D.

I've been open on stream about this as well, the site allows it, so when facing an aggro reg to my left with >150bb effective, I won't hesitate to leave and come back with a 100bb stack, because at least I don't have to waste extra energy trying to figure out how to adjust. And if I have 2 <50bb stacks at my table, and they play like regs (there are also some recrteationals that just don't want to risk too much), I will just leave the table.

EDIT: I realize I didn't really answered the original question!

The avatar leaves the table at the end of the hand, so if during the same hand he leaves and comes back, the information (stacksizes/new player) refreshes at the start of next hand.

[GR1ZZL3R]

Thankyou @DaVitsche. Ive tried this leaving and coming back and it certainly seems to work. I just tick the sit out next hand and as soon as it starts leave the table and buy straight back in with the smaller stack. The notice comes up, you will be seated as soon as this hand finishes, and sure enough there you are sat in the same seat with your new buy in, usually. once in a different seat same table once on a new table. I guess its just timing if some-one happens to buy in a split second before you. Personally I was just doing it to see how it works, Im not sure I see the point. This player keeps squirelling away his money a few euros at a time but if he loses his stack or goes very low he tops up anyway so hes obviously willing to lose more than 10e in one session, but not in one hand. Anyway I cant be bothered sitting in and out so I tend to stay at the same table unless theres 1-2 big stacks raising every hand andc-betting all the time. That tends to get tiresome so I just leave and try again. Thankyou.

[Rushbie]

Funny that a feature that is so widely prohibited, is not just allowed, but justified and almost seems recommended now. Will run a test period doing something as disgraceful as this too, and see how it affects both the possible winnings, and the playing will of others at the same games. Should be interesting. In fact I challenge everyone else to do the same thing, let's make the online poker great and enjoyable again, by ratholing yeah 👍:cash:

[Ryan94]

I keep seeing this all the time. Nickname above20. Playing low stakes PLO.

Unibet, please tell me how is this possible? I have never seen this type of action on other poker sites. You just can't leave the table with 150bb and then two seconds later come back with 100bb. That should not be allowed. All the other poker sites makes you rejoin the table with exactly the same amount that you just left with.

[GR1ZZL3R]

@Ryan94 Youve obviously seen this player do this. At least it confirms my observations and im not going sealion just yet. Thats why I didnt know where the money went as you cant rathole on any other site but does this confirm Unibet as more player friendly, not risking winnings or any more than max buy in. I suspect mosy players wouldnt know you could do this anyway. Off to play now and I know he will be there. Cheers

[Blaren]

The problem with ratholing is just one big illusion.Are you upset If a player with a 50bb stack leaves after winning a few bbs and a new player sits down with 50bb? If not,  then you don't have any reason to be upset if the first player sits down with 50bb. It is exactly the same situation.

[Rushbie]

The illusion is in your head. When one single player (or with similar players ) abuses the rules, against the ignorants, thats ratting, man. Sewers are full of those.

 

[GR1ZZL3R]

@Blaren I dont have a problem with ratholing as Ive never encountered it before, all I wanted to know was what was happening to the money as it just disappeared and with community help I now know the answer. It just seems strange he wont play for more than 12-13e one hand but will lose 10 on an all-in and re-load straightaway. Each to his own I suppose. One other site I played there were a few players that would buy in for the minimum 20bb and go all in with AK or any pair, leave if they won and pop up on another table, or reload if they lost. It takes all sorts. Cheers.

 

[Blaren]

@GR1ZZL3R I didn't meant to imply that you were against or in favor of ratholing. It was just meant as a reply to anyone in the thread who thinks it is a problem to think again. Why does it matter if the same guy pockets some money and reapear, but if he left and a new player sat down with 50bb no one would react? 

[GR1ZZL3R]

@Blaren I tend to agree. I was just puzzled by the money vanishing but Im quite happy now I know whats happening. One less thing to keep my eyes on.

[Omahahaha]

Admission time:

I've just been playing PLO cash to get my April Mission Part 3 Blackjack.

On getting a double up, I clicked on the +1 to get a new table up, and also clicked the Leave next BB, to exit the original table. The new table popped up with me on a wait list of one. When my original table closed I suddenly reappeared in the same seat with a reset stack.

So totally indavertant, but it happened.

1) I understand that ratholing is considered bad. But don't really understand why (I love STTs)

2) Is it considered OK to leave a table, bank a profit, and join another table

3) Sorry if my inadvertant rathole caused offence.

 

p.s. it happend twice in one session.

 

[DaVitsche]

It's a trade-off 

On one end people might get offended because you make it less likely that they'll be able to win their money back in one big pot. On the other hand, people need to realize, that unlike live poker, you have a lot of options to play online poker, so if you would feel unpleasant playing for 200bb, you could potentialy just stop this session and move somewhere else. Personally I would love ratholing to be stopped between 50-100bb, but be possible above 100bb. Just because the nature of the 50bb advantage and how it can easily kill a good game dynamic.