View: Unibet should introduce 5-Card Omaha (5 Card PLO) tables

[Onemorebeerpls]

Hi guys (and the occasional girl making her way into the poker forums ❤️ ),

I recently had a small "discussion" with Unibet-Andrew in another thread related to Omaha SNGs. He said that Unibet has plans to spread PLO8 (Pot-Limit Omaha Hi/Lo) in the future and this is the gametype that is most likely to be added.

I liked his idea, but stated that I would like the introduction of 5-Card Omaha (5 Card PLO) even more for various reasons.

Therefore I would like to start a dedicated thread for my idea and would be happy to hear opinions from other Unibet players (and obviously from Andrew and the other staff members, too!).

For those of you who don´t know anything about this game, it has the exact same rules as "common" PLO, except you get 5 dealt cards instead of 4. Otherwise all hand rankings, and betting rules (pot-limit structure) are exactly the same.

Now let me get into my reasons why I think it would be a great addition to Unibet´s current offering:

-extremely popular gametype, the amount of traffic is increasing and on rare occasions I have personally even seen more tables of 5-Card PLO running than of regular PLO at Pokerst*** (I need to use them as example because they are one of the very selected sites that spread this game)

-recreationals love this game, because you can play way more hands than in other poker variants and get away with it 

-action-packed game, due to the high amount of dealt cards you make plenty of sets, strong draws and so on and pretty much always have some equity in all-in situations (compared to a game like Holdem where you are often getting it in pretty much dead)

-less development effort for the guys at Relax Gaming, because it´s basically regular PLO with one added card (I could be wrong about this, but it shouldn´t be too much work compared to the introduction of other poker variants, which would have to be developed from scratch)

-no split-pots (I mentioned this in the other thread and Andrew rightfully criticized that this is not a valid reason for disliking PLO8 and rather just a personal preference of me... but I think there are maybe other players who exactly like me don´t like games with many split-pots? But as I said that argument is pretty weak and was dismissed by Andrew quickly.

-the game is a huge rake generator (it would probably be even more profitable than regular PLO for Unibet due to the action heavy play)... at the lowest limits on the competitor site it is probably even unbeatable (not sure about this, but you could probably lure some customers away who are tired of paying 4,5 % rake for a 5-Card PLO 0,10/0,25 game (the lowest stake offered at the competitor site)

I could probably think of a few more reasons, but think this should be enough to get a discussion started.

I really love this game and it has reignited my love for the game of poker (and I know other players who feel exactly the same). It is also the only reason why I´m still playing on and still have the Pokerst*** software on my computer. Introduce this gametype and I´m gone there for good :smileyvery-happy:

 

Postscript:

(feel free to delete or censor it if it is against the community rules to post screenshots of a competitor site, but I feel that this adds to my line of argumentation... as I said in the other thread the pokerscout gamefinder data is broken for this particular gametype --> Unibet-Andrew therefore thought that no 5-Card games were running at all)

The 2 following screenshots show the amount of currently running tables for PLO8 and for 5-Card Omaha. You see that more tables of 5-Card are running and also on way higher limits (I filtered for <PLO400, because it is very unlikely that Unibet will introduce higher stakes anyways). 8 running tables at 5-Card PLO 100 or higher compared to exactly one running table at PLO8.

Also take a look at the Players/Flop column... if that doesn´t look like a fun game I don´t know how to convince you :smileyvery-happy:

The current time is a rather low traffic time, in the evening obviously even more tables run.

Let me hear what you guys think of my idea :smileyhappy:

As everyone who has read until here will now know, I would be really happy to be able to play this gametype at Unibet in the future!

 

[MoreTBC]

I like 5 Card PLO. Would play :) Don't expect to see it any time soon though, dev time is probably better used in other areas.

[BookTheWin]

PLO8 Tables not a standard representation, since they also has NLO8 tables.

Also PLO8 games are low because it's a split pot game and the rake at that site is just a massacre.  

I hope PLO8 is added before 5 Card PLO the difference is so negliable between 4 and 5 card PLO.

[Valkyrie]

I've never tried 5-Card Omaha, but it seems to be a game I could actually understand and enjoy playing. Personally, I have no real interest in PLO8 because Hi-Lo games always confuse me. I'd prefer it if they bring in Razz, but I've pretty much given up on that happening any time soon because I've been told it would require a lot of work to develop and it's not on their agenda right now. But if 5-Card Omaha is less technically complicated to implement I'm all for it. :smileyhappy:

[Magicadil]

5 Card PLO would be a great add. I can see it remaining full throughout the day since it's a very exciting game, & also extremely high variance, which is beneficial for the recs. For starters, you could add small-medium stakes (Up to 0.5-1.00) to track the traffic. If it's successful, then add higher stakes.

[Farseer]

NLO8 and PLO8 should certainly be added. NLO8 is second most popular MTT format currently, eclipsing PLO. It's sad to see that most sites don't understand it and neglict those games, concentrating solely on No Limit Texas and wither Pot-Limit Omaha.

Main reason why PLO8 / NLO8 is not so popular cash game format is that rake in those is so very high due to great amount of split pots. I hope that Unibet understands this and treats split pot-games differently in terms of rake.

With these things in mind, I certainly think 5-card PLO should be added as well. Worrying about splitting liquduity should not be so great issue, as many sites which have offered it like Full Tilt don't offer it any more (except as part of some other network. I like to occasionally play random poker variants, they're fun. 

Late Entraction network thrived when they offered lots of games, including something very random like Telesina ja Sökö (Finnish version of 5-card stud). There might be smaller amount of players interested in them, but they don't currently have place to go. And they will play other games as well.

[BookTheWin]

Why not 6 Card Omaha it ran on Full Tilt, if it's a suggestion to add 5 Card PLO because Jason Somerville plays it on Twitch than that's kind of sad (hope it isn't).

There is already PLO and it's not booming it doing alright, PLO8 is a new game.  If you don't understand it you should try and learn it because unlike PLO you can have a really good edge in the game once you learn it.  Aren't the 4 card PLO tables variance enough, for the amount of effort it would take for them to integrate it doesn't seem worth it.

Stud, Stud 8, Razz, 2-7 triple draw, single draw as they all would be nice to have maybe in a year or two if the player pool goes up, much bigger sites can't even run those games regularly right now.

Hope Omaha Hi Lo comes before even a glimpse of 5 card omaha.

[Andrew]

I doubt we'll be able to get anything done this year - Relax are working on the new poker client, then we'll be spending time on bug fixes and the high priority features that need to come next, like the iPhone client.  But after that, I'd like to add another game type.

I didn't realise that PLO5 was so popular on PS due to the Pokerscout bug that meant it didn't display properly there.  I'll have to do more research, and of course I'll have to find out how much work it would be for the developers to build each option.  If it took 10% of the effort to make PLO5, then I think that'd be the clear favourite, for example.  If it's 50/50, then it's hard to make a choice given what I know at the moment.

We've had a couple of days recently where PLO has raked about 2/3 the amount NLHE did.  I doubt there's any other site with that kind of ratio, and it's good news for our long term plan of encouraging PLO play in our promos.  It makes me happier about the idea of adding another PLO-related game, as we can stand the split in liquidity a bit better.  We'd still need to be bigger than we are today, but we'll probably have a good autumn & winter.

 

[Onemorebeerpls]

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Thank you guys for the many answers, I´ll try to answer each one now (and I hope I don´t mess up the post while trying to include the quotes as the community software currently has no multiquote feature as far as i know (?).

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@MoreTBC wrote:

I like 5 Card PLO. Would play :) Don't expect to see it any time soon though, dev time is probably better used in other areas.

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Great! I really think that it´s a gametype that many players enjoy. It doesn´t play as tight as other games and hands look very beautiful (AA998 double-suited or AKQJT double-suited and so on) :smileyhappy:

I completely agree that there are definitely other issues but thought that it couldn´t be bad to make the Unibet staff (and especially Andrew) aware of the popularity of this gametype.

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@BookTheWin wrote:

PLO8 Tables not a standard representation, since they also has NLO8 tables.

Also PLO8 games are low because it's a split pot game and the rake at that site is just a massacre.  

I hope PLO8 is added before 5 Card PLO the difference is so negliable between 4 and 5 card PLO.

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I didn´t include NLO8 tables on purpose (btw, there are only 3 tables running right now with more than 2 players seated... the NLO8 cashgame playerpool is really negligible). If Unibet will add PLO Hi-Lo I´m sure it will be either NLO8 or PLO8, but definitely not both. I obviously don´t know why you are so keen on PLO8 tables, but it could maybe be caused by the fact that edges are bigger and you will be able to make more money there? This is of course a valid reasoning, but maybe not in the interest of Unibet if recreationals lose at a faster rate. I could be wrong about this due to my limited experience with playing PLO8 but I have seen it multiple times that recreational players really overplay their strong low or strong high hands and often end up losing 3/4 of the pot to a professional.

(Disclaimer: I also only play recreationally! If I talk about recreational players anything I say is definitely not meant in a disrespectful way :smileyhappy:)

So as I said I´m only speculating here, but I can see why many people would prefer PLO8 to 5-Card Omaha due to the higher possible edge. But if I understand Unibet´s current strategy right it is maybe not a desired outcome to have games with higher edges for professionals.

@Valkyrie wrote:

I've never tried 5-Card Omaha, but it seems to be a game I could actually understand and enjoy playing. Personally, I have no real interest in PLO8 because Hi-Lo games always confuse me. I'd prefer it if they bring in Razz, but I've pretty much given up on that happening any time soon because I've been told it would require a lot of work to develop and it's not on their agenda right now. But if 5-Card Omaha is less technically complicated to implement I'm all for it. :smileyhappy:

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 I´m sure you would enjoy it!

I feel similar about Hi-Lo games, but as Andrew pointed out in the other thread, personal preferences (our dislike for playing lots of split-pots, Valkyrie :smileyvery-happy: ) are not valid arguments against adding a particular gametype. 

Razz is also a fun gametype, but I think it´s too unpopular.

@Magicadil wrote:

5 Card PLO would be a great add. I can see it remaining full throughout the day since it's a very exciting game, & also extremely high variance, which is beneficial for the recs. For starters, you could add small-medium stakes (Up to 0.5-1.00) to track the traffic. If it's successful, then add higher stakes.

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I wholeheartedly agree with everything of this. At the competitor site games start at 0,10/0,25 so if Unibet would offer 0,05/0,10 or even 0,02/0,04  that would maybe attract players on its own who don´t want to play higher (or are simply from lower income countries). Additionally games at PS are really overraked (4,5 % on 0,10/0,25), which is simply too much for an action heavy game (for the same reasons as regular PLO rake structure on Unibet is low on smallstakes).

As I pointed out in my opening post a lower rake would certainly attract many players from the competitor site. But of course the decision for a particular rake percentage and cap is rather a decision for Andrew and the staff than for me, but I really see potential there :smileyvery-happy:

@Farseer wrote:

NLO8 and PLO8 should certainly be added. NLO8 is second most popular MTT format currently, eclipsing PLO. It's sad to see that most sites don't understand it and neglict those games, concentrating solely on No Limit Texas and wither Pot-Limit Omaha.

Main reason why PLO8 / NLO8 is not so popular cash game format is that rake in those is so very high due to great amount of split pots. I hope that Unibet understands this and treats split pot-games differently in terms of rake.

With these things in mind, I certainly think 5-card PLO should be added as well. Worrying about splitting liquduity should not be so great issue, as many sites which have offered it like Full Tilt don't offer it any more (except as part of some other network. I like to occasionally play random poker variants, they're fun. 

Late Entraction network thrived when they offered lots of games, including something very random like Telesina ja Sökö (Finnish version of 5-card stud). There might be smaller amount of players interested in them, but they don't currently have place to go. And they will play other games as well.

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I think many sites understand the issue but don´t have the playerpool to support to many exotic variants. I can understand why Andrew may be reluctant to add 4-5 Omaha variants, because that would cannibalize current PLO traffic too much and Courchevel or stuff like that doesn´t even really run on the competitor site.

I agree about your argument regarding rake in split-pot games! If Andrew and the other staff members decide against adding 5-Card PLO Omaha and add PLO8 they will surely consider this aspect.

I´m really surprised that NLO8 MTTs are so popular, but again this may have something to do with the fact that a good strategy for these gametype is not that hard to develop (if shortstacked you can pretty much profitably openjam all the A2xx hands).

Additionally, one more argument against adding lots of gametypes is that it clutters the lobby too much! Look how clean the Unibet lobby is right now compared to the mess at iPoker or something similar :smileyhappy: I think 1-2 additions would be fine, but too many gametypes clutter the lobby too much.

Regarding the Finnish market and the preferences of Finnish players I really have no idea, you are for sure more knowledgeable about this.

@BookTheWin wrote:

Why not 6 Card Omaha it ran on Full Tilt, if it's a suggestion to add 5 Card PLO because Jason Somerville plays it on Twitch than that's kind of sad (hope it isn't).

There is already PLO and it's not booming it doing alright, PLO8 is a new game.  If you don't understand it you should try and learn it because unlike PLO you can have a really good edge in the game once you learn it.  Aren't the 4 card PLO tables variance enough, for the amount of effort it would take for them to integrate it doesn't seem worth it.

Stud, Stud 8, Razz, 2-7 triple draw, single draw as they all would be nice to have maybe in a year or two if the player pool goes up, much bigger sites can't even run those games regularly right now.

Hope Omaha Hi Lo comes before even a glimpse of 5 card omaha.

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I would be fine with 6-Card Omaha as well, but think 5-Card Omaha is more popular and therefore proposed the introduction of this gametype. I definitely don´t care about Jason Sommervilles stream and I have started playing 5 Card PLO long before he even started streaming :smileyhappy:

As I already said in my answer to your first reply I know that high edges are attainable in PLO8, but that may not be in Unibets interest. I already speculated about your reasons why you are so keen on PLO8, but we really can´t dictate Unibet´s future strategy due to personal preferences of us (like my interest in 5-Card PLO or your interested in high edge games like PLO8).

The other gametypes you mentioned are probably not popular enough. See my replies above why I think adding too many new gametypes is bad.

 

 

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@Andrew-Unibet wrote:

I doubt we'll be able to get anything done this year - Relax are working on the new poker client, then we'll be spending time on bug fixes and the high priority features that need to come next, like the iPhone client.  But after that, I'd like to add another game type.

I didn't realise that PLO5 was so popular on PS due to the Pokerscout bug that meant it didn't display properly there.  I'll have to do more research, and of course I'll have to find out how much work it would be for the developers to build each option.  If it took 10% of the effort to make PLO5, then I think that'd be the clear favourite, for example.  If it's 50/50, then it's hard to make a choice given what I know at the moment.

We've had a couple of days recently where PLO has raked about 2/3 the amount NLHE did.  I doubt there's any other site with that kind of ratio, and it's good news for our long term plan of encouraging PLO play in our promos.  It makes me happier about the idea of adding another PLO-related game, as we can stand the split in liquidity a bit better.  We'd still need to be bigger than we are today, but we'll probably have a good autumn & winter.

 

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I completely agree with your outlined development preferences. Everything you mentioned definitely is more important than a new gametype (in particular the new client obviously).

To be honest, that was exactly the reason why I made this dedicated thread. I got the impression due to your post in the other thread that you were thinking that no 5-Card PLO games run at all (due to the pokerscout bug, which still isn´t fixed for some reason). But as I indicated using my screenshots it´s the cashgame poker gametype with the most traffic behind NL and PLO. And PLO and NL traffic have been declining (except Unibet) on PS for a longtime, while 5-Card is becoming more popular.

Additionally I have played some livepoker in London a year ago and we played Dealer´s choice. 5-Card Omaha was by far the most popular gametype among the recreationals (and me), followed by 6-Card Omaha. Players love the action, you make strong hands more often than in other gametypes and you can easily have a big winning session. And I could be wrong about this Andrew, but especially the last aspect is important in my opinion.

One thing that made poker so fun and popular years ago was the fact that you could have a session where you win 5 stacks even as a recreational with not much knowledge about equities, ranges and so on. That was also the reason why regular 4-Card PLO got so popular years ago. Because NL games became more dry and everyone was more or less clueless about PLO even recreational players where having these big winning sessions.

And in my opinion edges are lower in 5-Card PLO than in PLO8, which increases the likelihood of a big winning session for a recreational. As I said in my limited experience (I admit that!) I often got the feeling that the recreational players basically can´t go on a big upswing unless they run ridiculously hot, because they are splitting often and additionally often lose 3/4 of the pot, because they are only focusing on their respective strong low hor high hand.

Additionally, I think especially in the UK 5-Card PLO is gaining in popularity by the day. I saw it played in livegames and if you look at the playerpool at the competitor site a lot of the players are Scandinavian, from the German-speaking countries (like me)... but by far the most players come from the UK.

And I could be wrong about this, but especially the UK and Scandinavia seem to be key-markets for Unibet?

(Unibet UK Tour, Unibet Open Kopenhagen :smileyvery-happy: )

Regarding your last sentences --> I´m happy to hear that regular PLO is so popular at Unibet and produced good numbers even during the sommer months! I would be happy to see another PLO gametype, and as I made obvious in this thread I´m sure 5-Card Omaha would be the best addition. Not only because it´s my personal preference, but also for Unibet and the "health" of the playerpool.

[Ramaraider]

Your right. I don't think it's feasable for this site. I would like to see full ring cashgames. I think full ring cash games make the rec players last longer. You can see more hands and play at a slower, more comfortable pace. The variance is more bearable for NLHE cash games.

[KenTouchMe]

That would be great if could be added in the future , it should be added from at least PL4 - PL10 tho , on sta*s the lowest is PL25 so i think they lose money for that , at lower stakes it would be madness , players throwing chips every hand.

[Andrew]

I'd definitely start it at 4.  It's more of a question of how high I'd want it to go:  it's important that we don't stop other games from running.  The lowest stakes have the most players, so it's safest to risk moving a few of them over to a new game.  If we ran 5PLO at the 400 level, we'd risk stopping PL400 from running AND 5PLO 400 running.  

[KenTouchMe]

Could start at 4PL and high as 50PL-100PL , i dont think the players at 400PL will abandon those games this way ,  probably will continue playing 400(plo) and ply some 50-100 (5card)

[Onemorebeerpls]

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@Andrew-Unibet wrote:

I'd definitely start it at 4.  It's more of a question of how high I'd want it to go:  it's important that we don't stop other games from running.  The lowest stakes have the most players, so it's safest to risk moving a few of them over to a new game.  If we ran 5PLO at the 400 level, we'd risk stopping PL400 from running AND 5PLO 400 running.  

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I think you could introduce it at PLO4-PLO50 and if it proves to be really popular (which I´m 100 % sure about) you could always introduce higher stakes afterwards after seeing the impact on the regular PLO traffic.

I still would love to be able to play 5-Card Omaha at Unibet :happy:

 

 

 

[Onemorebeerpls]

Sorry for bringing this topic up again , but I just couldn´t resist posting the following observation :laugh:

I once again compared the PLO8 and the 5-Card PLO traffic on your competitor site PS.

The results are astonishing and could easily influence your opinion towards 5-Card as the next gametype to be added to Unibet.

It´s currently Sunday peaktime in Europe (18:00 GMT, 17:00 CET).

For 5-Card Omaha I see the following running tables:

-1x PLO5 600, 3x PLO5 200, 3x PLO5 100, 4x PLO5 50, 5x PLO5 25 (lower limits aren´t offered by PS, therefore there are zero PLO5 10 or lower tables...)

For PLO8 I see the following running tables:

-2x PLO8 10, 2x PLO8 5, 3x PLO8 2 (above 0.05/0.10 there are zero games running even though tables are available!

 

The difference in popularity is immense. For me this isn´t even a real decision, it´s such a no-brainer :Smile: I know that my opinion is biased because 5-Card is my favourite gametype, but the traffic difference is simply too big. Add to that, that the development should be easier (you pointed out this would be a factor in your decision) because the game is basically PLO with one added card and no other rule differences, compared to PLO8 where you would have to develop the whole high-hand low-hand stuff and the decision gets even more easy.

[Onemorebeerpls]

bump for 2017, make it happen Unibet 👼

Game is still going very strong on the competitor site and much more popular than the split-pot variants of PLO8 and their respective variations.

Looking forward to playing lots of 5-card PLO.

 

 

[MoreTBC]

It's been mentioned a few times hear and on 2+2 that they plan to add an additional Omaha game at some point. There is zero chance of it happening until they can clear the majority, if not all, of the visual bugs and crashes the software has at the moment.

It'll happen, but not for at least 6 months I would guess.

[Onemorebeerpls]

any news @Andrew , @Robin-Unibet 😃 ?

The client is running very smoothly now and I think it is time for some new and exciting features - like a new gametype! 

 

[VikingsAF]

But 5 and 4 card are much alike. Wouldn't it be better to introduce something like hi-lo? 

[MetalWolf]

Hi-lo would also get my vote over 5 card.

[Onemorebeerpls]

@David-Unibet

any news regarding the implementation of a NEW gametype :) ? 
Banzai PLO is not really thriving and I believe something like 5-Card Omaha would prove to be a superior addition. Especially with a playerpool that consists of people from the UK and Scandinavia (the 5-Card games at PS are heavily populated by players from exactly these markets), which make up a substantial part of Unibet´s players.

 

[sorcloud]

Any news if you guys are working on a new game? Also what about online replayer? I remember you were planning to do that also :popeye: