SNG Leaderboard Promotions

[DavidP_Unibet]

Hi all,

I know there has been quite a lot of discussion over various forms of promotions, but the SNG promo feedback has been scattered around all kinds of other threads. We'll have another SNG promo coming soon and I'd like to gather some feedback from the SNG players here (or players who would play more SNGs during a promo). Specifically for leaderboard-style SNG promos, what would you like to see added, removed or changed entirely? Feel free to base suggestions on the last promo we ran (SNG Battle) or suggest something entirely different. I can't promise that every good idea will be implemented but I thought it's be better to have a thread specifically for this.

Thanks,

David

[MoreTBC]

Did Andrew pass on all the suggestions from when he asked in 2+2 about SnG promos a few months back? I gave a bunch of ideas with varying degrees of quality and there were some good ones from other players as well. I could go dig them up if required.

 

I've already said my piece on the leaderboard stuff. As a low stakes player I wouldn't add SnGs to my rotation in the current form. A weekly cap on games that counted, or something similar, would make me much more inclined to play. 

[PaziHalinka]

Hi,

 

I think you should change the point system a little bit. 

You can play hundreds of SNGs without getting a straight flush, and it's hard to stay motivated if you don't get any. (at least for me :smileyhappy: ) 

So i think it would be fairer to add maybe straights, flushes, full house etc. for less points, so if you are active and play enough SNGs, you will see the results.

[VanillaBlazin]

Good day,

very nice to hear that new SnG promo is coming, as a SnG grinder my suggestion would be award leaderboard warriors by the effort they gave to it not the luck they had, or unluck (loosing with ACES), add some sort of point system of how many games played or rake made. I`ll think more later.

[DavidP_Unibet]

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@MoreTBC wrote:

Did Andrew pass on all the suggestions from when he asked in 2+2 about SnG promos a few months back? I gave a bunch of ideas with varying degrees of quality and there were some good ones from other players as well. I could go dig them up if required.

 

I've already said my piece on the leaderboard stuff. As a low stakes player I wouldn't add SnGs to my rotation in the current form. A weekly cap on games that counted, or something similar, would make me much more inclined to play. 

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I also saw those at the time they were posted, so will dig those out and consider them alongside everything else.

 

[DavidP_Unibet]

Also, I should point out that the general direction isn't going to be rewarding grinders more than casual players (or certainly not any more than we do right now). I don't want our SNG promotions to be about who can neccessarily grind the most tables for the longest hours - I'd like future promos for SNGs (and any other format) to be fun to take part in, and give a wider audience a shot at prizes. 

[Cebula87]

I suggest that there two leaderboards for players low stakes (ex: 1-5euro) and the other.

Methinks it's Time to Implement other Types of Sit & Go's, and the smart move would be to introduce lower rates.

I'm on several forums about different languages and I know a lot of opinions on the software and etc., but I will describe next week, because in the weekend will be party, my twenty-ninth birthdays (oh My God, but I'm old :smileyhappy:)

[DavidP_Unibet]

29 is not old! Happy birthday, enjoy :)

[GotWhatItTakes]

I would change the extreme importance of straight flushes. Casual players had no chance at all to finish in top 10 or even top 20 because you would need several str. flushes in lower buyins to rank enough points. Also its quite overwhelming when you see the first places already accumulating thousands of points while you are still stuck with very few points.

I cant imagine any way to change the promotion into a more recreational-player-friendly way. It might be kind of a lottery if you want casual players to have a chance to reach first places. 

[OldBurf]

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@MoreTBC wrote:

Did Andrew pass on all the suggestions from when he asked in 2+2 about SnG promos a few months back? I gave a bunch of ideas with varying degrees of quality and there were some good ones from other players as well. I could go dig them up if required.

 

I've already said my piece on the leaderboard stuff. As a low stakes player I wouldn't add SnGs to my rotation in the current form. A weekly cap on games that counted, or something similar, would make me much more inclined to play. 

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Yeah i posted a bunch of suggestions for SNG promo's too on 2+2 at that time.

In SNG Battle specifically, I think the 5 handed games make it really hard for rec's to play the higher stake SNGs because they just get smashed by the 3-4 regs. So they lose faith and stop playing them or have to move down which makes those games a reg on reg battle. Ends up not being very fun for either party.

[jonny2192]

Maybe vary the way the prizepool is paid.

Have a single leaderboard with points.

Apply the multiplier on the prize money rather than the points.

Remaining prize money is split as a percenatage to the highest position of that stake.

Example.

10k Prizepool, 1e=0.2 2e=0.4 4e=0.6 10e=1

1st  780points SNG10  prize 5000 x 1 = 5000

2nd 673points SNG4    prize 2000 x 0.4 = 800

3rd  500points SNG1  prize  1000  x 0.2 = 200

4th 480points  SNG2    prize 1000 x 0.4 = 800

5th 400points  SNG10  prize 1000 x 1 = 1000

Totals paid out = 7800 leaving  2200 40% gos to 1st for SNG10 highest, 30% to 2nd for SNG4 highest, 20% to 4th for SNG2 highest, 10% to 3rd for SNG1 highest.

For this to work people would need to be able to have multiple positions on leaderboard based on stake.

This would encourage people running well at one stake to try a different stake.

I think it would be better to base scores on groups of games, so it is an advantage to play more sets of games but someone has a chance to get lucky and run well in there first set. I think the number of sets would need to be quite low to encourage rec players if it was a set of 50 games, I feel that would seem too much for a lot of rec players.

 

 

 

[liveroulette]

Leaderboard promotions are fun for mtt, the volume isn't enormous and it is fun to the end, one good run can give you a boost in the leaderboard on the last day. For sng it is the opposite after a few days it is unrealistic for the most players to finish high in the leaderboard and they give up, and the promotion becomes boring at the end for most players. Also you must play a enormous volume (# and hours) to finish good.

Maybe it is better to give short turn rewards, example "win 5 sng in a row and get a free sng ticket for that buyin ...". So players can enter the promo even on the last day. And like in the example if your lucky 5 sng will be enough to get something, low volume players are happy and grinders will have there part also. Or you can combine it with a leaderboard if it isn't to mutch.

[WuDu]

Hi,

as a SNG player myself, I'm happy to see more SNG promos in the near future, thus why I wil take some time to give you my opinion as well.

I'm a regular at the 10 SNG games and what I didn't like during the SNG battle was that the promotion rewarded bad play and just simple luck. I finished twice in the top-30, but only because I hit a straight flush in both of those weeks. In addition to that, the fact that you could score massive points by losing with AA at showdown lead to many promo grinders to slowplay AA to lose at showdown. I take those promos as a bonus, thus I play to win the game and was always at a big disadvantage against those promo grinders.

If you want to make future promos more friendly towards casual players, then why do you employ a pyramid setup when it comes to payouts? Why don't you cap the prize money for the #1 spot at 100-150 Euro instead of 500 Euro and distribute more between the places 10-50? I wasn't even looking at the top-20 so the prize money didn't motivate me at all.

Second, why don't you dust of some of the funniest "achievements" and set up the promo around them, like "they call me action dan"-monday e.g.. Instead of giving points for straight flushes why don't you give out points for winning a 5 men SNG after reaching the heads-up phase with less than 2000, 1500 or 1000 chips.

I hope that helps and I'm looking forward to the new promos

[monkeyheaven]

Posted some thoughts on 2+2 the other week.  I'm one of the highest volume regs in these games, I prioritised playing last month because of this promo, if it runs again in the same format I'll probably stay away.

sng battle rewards regs only, yet the games are over run with bonus hunting regs to the point that the bonuses don't come close to compensating for the decreased profitability of playing in tougher games (I came top 5 every week and I felt it wasn't worth the effort, lower volume regs must be even more unhappy with the situation).  Recs will have got crushed in these games, and the games certainly aren't fun for anyone.  I do think the popup telling you where you stand on the leaderboard is a nice touch, but there's never much fuss made of how much a player wins each week from any promo, with sng flip I didn't even know I had won.

The format is vulnerable to account sharing (though I didn't see any evidence of this).

The multiplier format does nothing to improve liquidity at higher stakes; all the regs bunch at the 10s, to the point they were clearly -ev to play, at times I was playing only 4/25/50/100s, because the 10s were so bad.

suggestion above is good, divide the leaderboard into different buyin levels, this would incentivise lower stakes regs, and would create needed action at the highest stakes.  Reward best set of x number of games, this increases variance, so gives recs a chance, and discourages bonus hunting regs. 

The most fun promo I've played was on stars.fr, in some games there would be a bounty on a sponsored players head, changes the dynamic of the games, is fun, and is much more random so should reward recs.

[Sect7G]

Chopping the leaderboard into two tiers makes a lot of sense.  If the current promos are making the games harder then something has to give as the "promo" time is quite possibly the worst time for a rec to play.  He likely doesn't play enough to "cash" on the leaderboard and he's now faced with a lineup of more regs than usual.

Blocks of rolling 10 games for 5-man SnG's and blocks of 20 games for HU SnG's might be a good alternative.  Even a poor player could run well over a short period of time.

 

Another thing I'd like to see is switching 5 man SNG's to 6 mans.  To start I'd introduce this up to the 10euro price point and if volume increases at 25+ introduce it there.  The obvious downsides are that it will take more time to load a SNG but at the lower stakes I don't think this is an issue.  The upside is players will get more play (duration) for their game (on average) and slightly higher ROI's will be feasible due to 1 more player being involved.  This will also give more room for another rec to join the game.  Oftentimes we get 4 regs carpet bombing every SNG so another seat would soften the games.

[MoreTBC]

+1 to moving to 6-max for SnGs. Seems strange to have 6 max MTTs and not SnGs.. and it's just the norm really :)

[Sect7G]

The more I think about it for SNG promos I feel that Unibet should do a hybrid between "Golden SitnGo's" and the drop prize promo.  All leaderboard type promos  reward grinders for the most part with some crumbs set aside for recreational players.

Players reg for a SnG and once seated the parachute comes down revealing what the prize is.  Either everyones buy in back or the prize pool has been doubled/tripled.

As for what stakes get rewarded it should be done like a pyramid (example 100 chutes for the lowest stake 50 for the next etc. and 5-10 for the 100 SNG's.  This could run 24 hours a day with an update on how many chutes are still set to deploy.

Ultimately the goal is to have an equal amount of cash distributed but much more frequent rewards at the lower stakes (which have a bigger player pool).

Recs can get behind this because there is no skill to get selected and the only skill is 1 SNG.  A lot of recs realize they have little shots at leaderboards.  If they do think they have a chance they are left with a sour tase in their mouth after the promo's complete.  This option avoids these scenarios.

Thoughts?

[GotWhatItTakes]

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@Sect7G wrote:

The more I think about it for SNG promos I feel that Unibet should do a hybrid between "Golden SitnGo's" and the drop prize promo.  All leaderboard type promos  reward grinders for the most part with some crumbs set aside for recreational players.

Players reg for a SnG and once seated the parachute comes down revealing what the prize is.  Either everyones buy in back or the prize pool has been doubled/tripled.

As for what stakes get rewarded it should be done like a pyramid (example 100 chutes for the lowest stake 50 for the next etc. and 5-10 for the 100 SNG's.  This could run 24 hours a day with an update on how many chutes are still set to deploy.

Ultimately the goal is to have an equal amount of cash distributed but much more frequent rewards at the lower stakes (which have a bigger player pool).

Recs can get behind this because there is no skill to get selected and the only skill is 1 SNG.  A lot of recs realize they have little shots at leaderboards.  If they do think they have a chance they are left with a sour tase in their mouth after the promo's complete.  This option avoids these scenarios.

Thoughts?

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I really like your idea. I hope Unibet will look into that and make it possible!

[Ejsik]

I believe I can call myself a rec player right now since not playing a lot. Most of them are HU SNGs so I do understand that promos won't be so generous as for Cash or 5max SNGS due to rake issues etc.

That said I was happy when saw the SNG Battle Promo.. was playing to increase my volume significantly due to this. I think 2nd day of 2nd week of the promo I played about 3 hours of my regular 10E stake, afther checking how many points I got even including changing alias etc. IIRC it was something about 200 hundred, and top 10 of the leaderboard already had 2k+ I believe. So already I noticed that I have no change in coming anywhere in top 100 even.

Like people said above, leaderboards are for grinders, even though you try to target rec players with it, when you do things like rewarding straight flushes etc. people who play the most will get all the money.

I do agree with ideas similar to Golden SnGos (even though in these cases it's hard to actually calculate the rewards totals beforehand) or do the set of games as suggested. With something like this still better players are rewarded more but even casual players can get a hot run of 5/10/20 games or whatever.

+1 also to the split between lower/higher stakes or something similar.

Looking forward to another SNG Promo but maybe one in which I could win at least 10E ;)

Thanks

[Doroty5599]



Are there any preliminary decisions? When start and what conditions?

[unibetslowplay]

I enjoyed the last promotion.

Weighing heavily toward a Straight Flush was BRILLIANT because it put recs players on more even a ground against the grinders in that even a casual can get lucky with two or three straigh flushes (I scored two and would consider myself a rec that plays during breaks at work and before new tasks as I believe a quick SnG allows me to hit my job with my mind warmed up and sharpened) and earn enough points to get a bonus where they never could otherwise.

If I can suggest something, I would have only given points on an AA loss on showdown if you go allin preflop as those are the ones that hurt the most.  Similarly, I would give points on a 2-7 that wins on showdown (but not preflop) as those are the ones that feel the best.

Good luck.

[Cebula87]

I think that the ranking should be established on the basis of the generated rake. Of course, here I mean cash games.

As for the ranking of the Sit & Go is the best option for users is scoring a busy place in a single tournament. Example for tables with five players:

Certainly you can not be combined ranking of the five seats with two seats. Because they are two different games. Where we have to use different tactics and strategies of the game. Therefore, combining these two games to one ranking I consider pointless. And, of course, playing time is much shorter in the case of tables with 2 seats.

Ranking on the tables of five seats divided into two parts: the low rates and high. (For example: 1,2,4 and 10 euros low rates and the other to high rates). Because not everyone can afford to play for 100 euros for one tournament, and we know that these need to get more points because they generate more rake. 

How to split the prize?
This is, of course, the team Unibet has counted on the basis of previous commissions generated.

How do you think it will be a good solution?

 

[jappe]

Some random rumblings from a casual low stake SnG player. 

I play very casually, maybe one or two sngs per day at maximum and definetely not every day. Therefore I'm not exactly the key target group for leaderboard type of promos. I do look at the promo t&c occasionally, but most of the time it takes just too much effort to actually have any chance of being included in the leaderboard. Ending up at prize levels is definetely out of my reach. If the previously suggested separate leaderboards are implemented, then I might have a shot, which might increase my sng play somewhat. 

What I'd like to see is double or nothing SNGs, those are the ones I most frequently play on other sites. That would also require the sngs to be six seated, I presume.

 

[polarbear]

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@jappe wrote:

 

What I'd like to see is double or nothing SNGs, those are the ones I most frequently play on other sites. That would also require the sngs to be six seated, I presume.

 

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in  now way those games should be added on Unibet. Those games are the most colluded games since online poker start.

[Andrew]

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@polarbear wrote:

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in  now way those games should be added on Unibet. Those games are the most colluded games since online poker start

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Yeh, that's the reason we don't have them.  It's also hard to spot the collusion, the PS DoN ring lasted a long, long time.