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How RNG works?


psrquack

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There's nothing more to share than what was shared in 2015 :)

"Our exact RNG is an implementation detail that we do not wish to share, but it is a cryptographically secure pseudo random number generator that passes the statistical tests in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TestU01 . The RNG has also been verified by an outside company; eCogra ( https://www.ecogra.org), one of the largest and most recognized independent audit firm in the igaming industry, which continuously audits the software and RNG

In poker, entire deck is shuffled once before the hand starts, using a simple algorithm (Knuth Shuffle, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisher%E2%80%93Yates_shuffle ), that produces an unbiased shuffle, given that the RNG it relies on is unbiased."

 

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Please @Stubbe-Unibet , I can use wikipedia myself so don't need an assistance for it. Let be more concrete: does your rng generate the cards before the deal happen or any action, like check, call, using timebank etc can modify the outcome. Is the card generating happen on every street or not. As I see you use ecogra as audit company, but which firm sold the mechanics to Unibet? Are there various rng simulation programs on market or every poker company uses the same? Is there a software update for the poker developed RNG or do not need it?

Btw I'm still waiting for expert's answer as Ray promised that one.

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Random is random. In other words it doesn't matter. It simply doesn't make sense to talk about the players actions having an impact. Again, it's random.

I don't have all the info you request and I honestly see no point in getting it either. It's gonna take time from some developer, if I was to request the full details, so it's simply not going to happen :)

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@Stubbe-Unibet wrote:

Random is random. In other words it doesn't matter. It simply doesn't make sense to talk about the players actions having an impact. Again, it's random.

I don't have all the info you request and I honestly see no point in getting it either. It's gonna take time from some developer, if I was to request the full details, so it's simply not going to happen :)


I really apprecaiated your answer. It's always pleasure having a friendly assistance from nice employees.

How good to see having a promise in one topic and facing the reality in other. You guys are really awesome, and I'm really proud being a member of that helpful community leading by such an sacrificing leaders. Thanks again.

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such-sarcasm-much-wow.thumb.jpg.ab0c7c249fe21efb1771c419bb68f4d8.jpg

Why do people care so much about this? You waiting 2 seconds or 3 seconds to click call makes no difference to the run out.You questions about actions altering things was answered in Stubbe's original quote. One shuffle. That's it. Cards are set, if the ace of hearts is 6th in order after the shuffle, it's staying there until the next hand.

 

This is all Lee Jones fault and his stupid PS videos from back in the day.

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@psrquack wrote:

@Stubbe-Unibet wrote:

Random is random. In other words it doesn't matter. It simply doesn't make sense to talk about the players actions having an impact. Again, it's random.

I don't have all the info you request and I honestly see no point in getting it either. It's gonna take time from some developer, if I was to request the full details, so it's simply not going to happen :)


I really apprecaiated your answer. It's always pleasure having a friendly assistance from nice employees.

How good to see having a promise in one topic and facing the reality in other. You guys are really awesome, and I'm really proud being a member of that helpful community leading by such an sacrificing leaders. Thanks again.


Where was it promised you'd get all details about the RNG? If you were indeed promised this, I do apologize for not being able to deliver such.

Again, I'm not going to waste development resources on a question that doesn't make any difference; random is random. Why do you need these details when it doesn't make any difference? Even if it didn't require development resources, I don't really see the need for this information to be made publicly available. I see two things happening:

- An endless discussion around details and things that make no difference; wasted time from my end and anyone else on Unibet/Relax end who'd need to provide info

- At the end of the day it won't change anything for any customers. It won't change the way you play - or change anything in general - as random is random

I'm always happy to share info and details when it makes sense and I feel it'll be a valuable discussion - these valuable discussions is the main reason I'm on here and why I was driving the community project in the very beginning. This discussion will never be valuable but solely a waste of time, at least for me/Unibet/Relax.

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I am afraid we will never know @psrquack .I asked the same question/s in the other thread.
No reply,as expected.
I live in illusion,until receives some other prove,that RNG pick a combination from already preordered outcome.
Example,in a #1875319246 (hand number) we have 6 players in and winner will be seat 3 with the straight (that is the best possible hand strength in that combination),and so on.
Dont think time,or bigger/smaller bet/raise/reraise,have an impact on the outcome.

But I do belive RNG can be adjusted/set up...didnt get into details of this because I probably would not understand šhit.Neither wanna learn 😉
What can I tell from my experience?! I used to play a lot Texas Hold'em Poker Live Dealer when it came out,and they are using shuffle machine.
Machine gave a hits here and there for us,customers,but most of the time dealer was a winner.One summer day shuffle machine died,therefore dealer/s needed to use their hands. 😉
Oh boy,black oil started to sprinkle...😃 in that session we had straight flush on a flop (for a 1€/$ as a side bet,bonus bet,we received 50 or more €/$) ,we had a bonus games (A on the flop or better) all the time.I think ratio was 3-4/1 for a bonus game to come.Lots of good stuffs!
But like always,good things does not last forever 😉

What I wanted to say is,in poker I do belive it is all random,and houses do not adjust them.In blackjack,or similar,hmmmm...
Lets be honest,if dealer shuffles the deck it will be random as no one saw the order,but if someone make algoritam and give an order to machine,it from the start isnt random.

Even tho I like your enthusiastic approach for things you do here,must admit,you also know write something that it just popped-up on your mind.Take a bit defensive approach next time when you wanna write something @Stubbe-Unibet  😉
I didnt find offended in any of your replies,but some peoples could.Carpenter,etc.
Most of us throwed bunch of stuffs on Ray-Unibet  and Jeppe-Unibet ,but never got some,maybe,offensive reply.
Just a tip for you 😉

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@XY wrote:

I am afraid we will never know @psrquack .I asked the same question/s in the other thread.


But why is it you want to know this? Isn't enough knowing it's random? Or did you watch the pokerstars video and want to hack into the Relax lasers? ;) As I mention above, I really don't see the point in discussing this, and I'm never going to have dev resources spent on it - especially not now with the bugs we've got.


@XY wrote:

Even tho I like your enthusiastic approach for things you do here,must admit,you also know write something that it just popped-up on your mind.Take a bit defensive approach next time when you wanna write something @Stubbe-Unibet  😉

I didnt find offended in any of your replies,but some peoples could.Carpenter,etc.

Most of us throwed bunch of stuffs on Ray-Unibet  and Jeppe-Unibet ,but never got some,maybe,offensive reply.

Just a tip for you 😉


My objective is no longer to build and grow the community, that's what Ray and Jeppe are here for :) I'm on here to turn a Trabant into a reliable Tesla 😏 My first priority is to improve the poker product, and I really don't have any interest in wasting time on discussing details around the RNG.

I've always been honest and to the point, and that won't change. I don't think I'm ever offensive, but if someone got really thin skin and expect a sugar-coated teletubbies tone of voice and approach, some of my replies might not be to their liking. If someone ever felt offended by something I wrote, I'd encourage them to send me a PM and explain their view on things :)

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@XY wrote:

@Stubbe-Unibet wrote:

@XY wrote:

I am afraid we will never know @psrquack .I asked the same question/s in the other thread.


But why is it you want to know this? 


For the same reason company keep it in secret...


So because of dev resources and not wanting to engage in an endless discussion regarding details that don't matter? ;)

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A simple solution could be to simply tell what company delivering the software and what organisations it is that "monitored frequently by independent player protection and standards organisations".

Since it says that "This RNG is independently tested and approved by Technical Systems Testing, which is a certified company registered in Canada." Fore games and casino and TST doesnt seem to exist anymore (but from my understanding gone up in GLI?) It would make sence that GLI then also is the security controller of the poker rng and if so their testing procces is easely downloadeble from their website.

https://gaminglabs.com/getting-started/technical-specifications-for-rng-testing/

Regarding why people would like to know and why it make sence for companys to share their formula i guess this article from the dawn of internet is still valid to provide that explanation.

https://www.datamation.com/entdev/article.php/616221/How-We-Learned-to-Cheat-at-Online-Poker-A-Study-in-Software-Security.htm

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Above info has been shared in the past on here, but I'm not sure about the GLI/TST involvement today, when it comes to poker - as you say, TST is/was part of GLI, but I don't believe they use that name anymore.

 

Still, I simply don't see the value of going into the details :)

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I think a reason is that it would make new players feel good and secure. Both new and regular players can feel angry and confused when they loose big spots and the less experience the player is the more likely it is that he/she dont understand how poker is a game of statistics and that variance is a fundamental part of it. 

When he/she then try to understand how this could happen they find out that the cards are dealt by an RNG but when they cant find information about how the RNG work they get susicious and uncomferteble, woundering if they are getting cheated bcs in their heads it doesnt make sence that they lost AA vs K4o. They want to make sure that this game is as secure as the provider claims and not just another froud like their partner/mum/conspiration thererist neightboor claims. 

Since unibet poker always claims to do everything for the benefit of the recreational players it do make sence to share information about the security of the product so the players can "investigate" for themselfes and see that it is secure and that they aint getting cheated. Then when they know that, they can keep playing the game and have fun.

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I strongly disagree :)

I do have a fair bit of experience discussing these things, and technical details will not convince anyone that the RNG works. It'll only result in more questions and a lot won't understand the details anyway. If someone thinks poker is rigged, they'll find the following points in pretty much all threads:

- The RNG is on the providers end and it's tested by at least one independent company

- In order to get the game licensed in local markets, the game(s) will usually have to be checked and approved by the local regulator

- The provider doesn't benefit from a rigged RNG in any way, and neither do we - we make money from the rake/fee and don't care who wins

- Poker makes up 2-3 % of our gross winnings revenue (and Relax obviously make quite a bit of money on casino games and bingo as well). Why on earth would we risk the entire business - if we were found to have offered a rigged poker game for years we'd very likely lose our licenses - by not having a proper RNG in place? Again, we don't really benefit from a RNG that doesn't work.

 

If someone reads the above and still believe the game is rigged against him/her, I can assure you some technical details won't help one bit. Why would they believe some details posted on here, if they don't believe in common sense and independent verification :)

 

So no, it doesn't make sense to post the details. All it'll do is waste time :)

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@Stubbe-Unibet wrote:

There's nothing more to share than what was shared in 2015 :)

"Our exact RNG is an implementation detail that we do not wish to share, but it is a cryptographically secure pseudo random number generator that passes the statistical tests in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TestU01 . The RNG has also been verified by an outside company; eCogra ( https://www.ecogra.org), one of the largest and most recognized independent audit firm in the igaming industry, which continuously audits the software and RNG

In poker, entire deck is shuffled once before the hand starts, using a simple algorithm (Knuth Shuffle, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisher%E2%80%93Yates_shuffle ), that produces an unbiased shuffle, given that the RNG it relies on is unbiased."

I heard that eCogra was founded  by two companies - Microgaming and 888.

Unibet was flagship room in Microgaming - long time.....

"Outside company"  - means that Unibet  is not assoсiated with eCogra (sponsorship and other)

As I right?

 

 

 


 

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@Argevolen

- Not sure what crazy conspiracy theory you got brewing :D

- eCOGRA was founded by 3 different igaming companies if I remember correctly, but it's ownership changed many years ago - they obviously wanted to be completely independent given the nature of their business :)

- Unibet was part of the Microgaming poker network

- The RNG is not with us but the provider of the poker software (Relax gaming)

- eCogra is independent of Unibet (but again, the RNG is not with us, so your question in this regard doesn't really make sense)

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@Stubbe-Unibet wrote:

I strongly disagree :)

I do have a fair bit of experience discussing these things, and technical details will not convince anyone that the RNG works. It'll only result in more questions and a lot won't understand the details anyway.

 

 

I take your word for it, personaly i have no doubt the rng works and is well controlled, was just sharing thoughts on how others might think.

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@pinki Thanks for linking that article, it was really interesting. I knew that there were some massive, and really amateuristic coding issues in the infancy of online poker, when poker software wasn't much more thought through than a for fun flash game, and no regulations anywhere (2000ish) but I never knew the exact algorithms used and the methods to exploit them on the fly, super cool stuff. 

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