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Change to Rio Showdown Series


DavidP_Unibet

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Thanks to , we realised that there was an issue with the Flip tournaments due to take place on 18th and 19th August as part of the Rio Showdown Series - if you were eliminated in the first hand it would be randomly determined where you placed after that. That's obviously not ideal, so we have replaced the Flip tournaments on 18th and 19th August with two deepstack tournaments. They are showing the poker lobby now and the site page will also be updated shortly, details for these two replacement tournaments are as follows:

EventDateStackBlinds # of events
NLHE Deep Showdown18th August5,00010 mins4
PLO Deep Showdown19th August5,00010 mins4

 

The tournaments above will count towards the series leaderboard and you will have to follow the same procedure as before to enter the freeroll tournaments. Apologies for the inconvenience, anyone who was already registered for the Fip tournaments will have to re-register. 

“Heroes are heroes because they are heroic in behavior, not because they won or lost.”
― Nassim Nicholas Taleb
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Shot myself in the foot with this one. I'm working on Friday night and the only way I could have got any points would have been with a flip MTT :smileyvery-happy:

Hopeully we can get headsup flips in future to elimiate this problem.

Have you read my blog HERE... It's long isn't it :)
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@DavidP_Unibet, with all respect I think this is not a good decision for the following reasons:

1. @Andrew-Unibet wrote in 2+2 sometime ago: "Part of the reason flips are in there is to give some weaker players a better shot.". Now you are taking away this better shot for weaker players. Not only that, but as more variance would favour weaker players you change these tournaments to deepstack and 10 mins. which are one of least variance tournaments in all this promotions. If some weaker player started participating in this promotion and has already played many tournaments and now in the middle of promotion you change rules so that they give weaker players less change, obviously they might feel like being betrayed by Unibet. (Note that I don't want start discuss in general should promotion formats favour weaker/strong player or have less/more variance issue, point is that these thing should be announced beforehand, and players can then make a choice to participate in promotions that are favourable to them, if rules are changed in the middle, obviousle some people don't like that).

2. Some people have planned they timetables/worktimes based on information given, now you have changed one of fastest tournaments to a very slow one. Again some people will be very disappointed in this decision as it is screwing their planned timetables.

3. The "problem" this change is fixing is actually non-existant or very minor in the first place. You write that "if you were eliminated in the first hand it would be randomly determined where you placed after that", that is true. But then again, flip tournaments are very much totally random in any case and in all phases, so what is the problem? In flip tournament you placing is randomly determined in any case.

So it seems to me that this change is creating more problems that actually fixing. Of course some/many people will like this change because it reduces variance and this would have been perfecly ok if this would have been this way at the start of the promotion. But changing in the middle promotion is really...well I would not want to use words like "dishonest" so let's just say that this is kind of unfair to some players.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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@vaisto wrote:

 

@DavidP_Unibet, with all respect I think this is not a good decision for the following reasons:

@1. @Andrew-Unibet wrote in 2+2 sometime ago: "Part of the reason flips are in there is to give some weaker players a better shot.". Now you are taking away this better shot for weaker players. Not only that, but as more variance would favour weaker players you change these tournaments to deepstack and 10 mins. which are one of least variance tournaments in all this promotions. If some weaker player started participating in this promotion and has already played many tournaments and now in the middle of promotion you change rules so that they give weaker players less change, obviously they might feel like being betrayed by Unibet. (Note that I don't want start discuss in general should promotion formats favour weaker/strong player or have less/more variance issue, point is that these thing should be announced beforehand, and players can then make a choice to participate in promotions that are favourable to them, if rules are changed in the middle, obviousle some people don't like that).

2. Some people have planned they timetables/worktimes based on information given, now you have changed one of fastest tournaments to a very slow one. Again some people will be very disappointed in this decision as it is screwing their planned timetables.

3. The "problem" this change is fixing is actually non-existant or very minor in the first place. You write that "if you were eliminated in the first hand it would be randomly determined where you placed after that", that is true. But then again, flip tournaments are very much totally random in any case and in all phases, so what is the problem? In flip tournament you placing is randomly determined in any case.

So it seems to me that this change is creating more problems that actually fixing. Of course some/many people will like this change because it reduces variance and this would have been perfecly ok if this would have been this way at the start of the promotion. But changing in the middle promotion is really...well I would not want to use words like "dishonest" so let's just say that this is kind of unfair to some players.


Hi @vaisto

I appreciate it's not ideal but there was no option to keep the Flips in there - the developers told us that they thought the finishing positions for the leaderboard would be random, but as Flips haven't been tested in a leaderboard format on our client before we couldn't be 100% sure of that and didn't want to risk it when these tournaments are part of a bigger series.

We could have replaced the Flips with a more similar tournament, but the main feedback on this series so far has been that the structures are faster than most players would prefer. In hindsight we actually agreed with that feedback and so the fairest thing to do seemed to be to replace them with a tournament that had a bit more play - on the whole the series still has quite a high amount of variance in my opinion. Going forwards all we can do is make sure that any tournaments included in future series' are tested thoroughly beforehand so that we don't have to make changes like this (I think this is the first time we have had to use the 'Unibet reserve the right to change the promotion' term at any point in the past 2 years). I'm sorry that the change isn't what you would have liked but the feeling here was that this would be the option wanted by the majority of players (and not because of an 'experienced vs new player' bias but because most players in general appeciate having a bit more play for their entry fee). 

“Heroes are heroes because they are heroic in behavior, not because they won or lost.”
― Nassim Nicholas Taleb
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@vaisto wrote:

 

3. The "problem" this change is fixing is actually non-existant or very minor in the first place. You write that "if you were eliminated in the first hand it would be randomly determined where you placed after that", that is true. But then again, flip tournaments are very much totally random in any case and in all phases, so what is the problem? In flip tournament you placing is randomly determined in any case.

 


When you look at the maths the problem actually gets a lot worse when you get further into the flip tourney. Take the final table for example, 2nd to 6th are all knocked out at the exact same time yet (in a hypothetical 200 entrant €10 flip) 2nd would get 90 points and 6th would get 30 points. That's a massive points gap to be decided randomly and if I'm the guy that randomly get's 6th I'm gonna be pretty annoyed about it because in that situation teh points should be distributed on a flat scale. The same goes for the actual cash payouts as well, they should be flat for 2nd-6th but are not in the current state.

 

Have you read my blog HERE... It's long isn't it :)
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Hi @DavidP_Unibet,

thanks for the quick reply. Of course Unibet has the rights to change promotion in the middle of it as it is clearly stated in the terms: "'Unibet reserve the right to change the promotion'. And of course most players (as I would guess majority participating are "stronger" players) would prefer longer tournaments and less variance.

The question is more of fairness to weaker players, as Andew said "flips give some weaker players a better shot" the situation is now worse for the weaker players. It is perfectly ok to listen the feedback of majority and going by that, just as it is important to acknowledge (at least to yourself) that this change is a bit unfair to some minority of players as weaker players now have "a lesser shot". But as this was a "force majeure" case: the flips technically weren't guaranteed to work, then I understand that you had no choice but to replace them.

Personally I will try to rectify the situation by going to lots of all-in flips in tonight tournaments :) :)

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,  yes, that is the very essence of flips tournaments, they are basically totally random. Wether that is good or bad, it depends. As stated before more randomness favours weaker players, and strong players of course prefer less randomness.

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@vaisto wrote:

Hi @DavidP_Unibet,

thanks for the quick reply. Of course Unibet has the rights to change promotion in the middle of it as it is clearly stated in the terms: "'Unibet reserve the right to change the promotion'. And of course most players (as I would guess majority participating are "stronger" players) would prefer longer tournaments and less variance.

The question is more of fairness to weaker players, as Andew said "flips give some weaker players a better shot" the situation is now worse for the weaker players. It is perfectly ok to listen the feedback of majority and going by that, just as it is important to acknowledge (at least to yourself) that this change is a bit unfair to some minority of players as weaker players now have "a lesser shot". But as this was a "force majeure" case: the flips technically weren't guaranteed to work, then I understand that you had no choice but to replace them.

Personally I will try to rectify the situation by going to lots of all-in flips in tonight tournaments :) :)


I agree, it gives weaker players less chance than they previously had in this series. It's worth pointing out, Andrew and I (and the rest of our team) have exactly the same philosophy when it comes to levelling the playing field between new and more experienced players and myself and @Robin-Unibet were responsible for putting the Flips tourneys in the series in the first place. This change wasn't designed to make things harder for less-experienced players but we saw it as an opportunity to rectify a mistake we had made with the initial setup (too many fast structure tourneys). In an ideal world we would have had some slower structure tourneys in the series in the first place and also some Flips tourneys and hypers as a leveller.

I hope you're still able to enjoy the rest of the series and gl in your all-in flips tonight ;)

“Heroes are heroes because they are heroic in behavior, not because they won or lost.”
― Nassim Nicholas Taleb
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I understand that the flip gives everyone an equal playing field in regards to where they finish and I'm fine with that. The point I raised is that points distribution and payout distribution should be flat. It doesn't matter whether you are a weaker player or a end level boss, if you get knocked out in round two or the final table you should get the same as the player next to you that also got knocked out. It's an issue that affects all players, not just weaker ones.

 

Take a 360 entrant flip (I'm using 360 for ease of maths) this is how I would expect the payouts to work.

Round 1 - 360 players start,  300 players eliminated (no cash payout, no points) - (60 players left)

Round 2 - 60 players start, 54 players eliminated (equal % prizepool + equal points) - (6 players left)

Round 3 - 6 players start, 1 Winner (x% prizepool + full points) - (5 players eliminated, equal x% prizepool + equal points)

 

With the current payout structure and points formula this structure is impossible. It is also not helped by the fact the flips are 6 handed and not heads up. The difference between what points you get for 60th and 7th is enough to make the difference between one prize and another on the leaderboard for any player.

 

Have you read my blog HERE... It's long isn't it :)
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Well this was an oversight and sometimes the fix seems worse than the original problem.  All Unibet can do is learn from this going forward.  Since it's happening in the future no player can say the rules were switched to their definite detriment.   This has been a great promo (I sucked of course) and I hope something like this can be done in the future.  Unibet should consider reaching out to some knowledgeable players and have them offer input on some of the offerings/promo's that are about to be implimented as it's better to make minor adjustments ahead of time rather than during the promo.  As an example Unibet mentioned in hindsight that players didn't like such fast structures for this promo (despite it being set up to protect them).  A lot of knowledgeable players said that after the structure was signed and delivered. (too late)  Sometimes a few minds are better than one.

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+1 to .

I know it's not on nearly the same scale but the COOP schedule threads on 2+2 are some of the most positive and productive when it comes to generating a series that suits as many players as possible. There have already been a number of positive changes made to things on Unibet based on feedback on the community and forums but it always tends to be reactive and not proactive. 

Have you read my blog HERE... It's long isn't it :)
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Agreed, it's definitely an approach we can look to adopt - I'd rather we were proactive rather than reactive wherever we can be so that we avoid these problems. Our promotions are often built months in advance because the devs need to integrate certain features into the client and we often don't want to publically spell out what we are doing that far ahead of time as it's easy to another site to come along and copy the promo, but there are certainly steps we can take to improve this side of how we work. Thanks for the feedback.

“Heroes are heroes because they are heroic in behavior, not because they won or lost.”
― Nassim Nicholas Taleb
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All of the results from 19th August are currently missing from the leaderboard page - removing Flips tournaments has had the knock-on effect of the replacement tournaments not being added to the leaderboards yet. We're currently trying to find the best solution to get this info added as quickly as possible, but until then the leaderboards may be removed from the page so that players aren't confused by what they see. Sorry about this, we're working on a solution as a priority here. 

“Heroes are heroes because they are heroic in behavior, not because they won or lost.”
― Nassim Nicholas Taleb
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Sorry, tonight's tournaments should show up in the lobby shortly. We were putting out one fire and another one started behind our backs. :smileymad:

“Heroes are heroes because they are heroic in behavior, not because they won or lost.”
― Nassim Nicholas Taleb
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startelver wrote:

 

What happened to the leaderboard? Its not been updated ? No change in my position for the last 2-3 days .

 Not that it does matter , I am far away from top 25 .  But I made final table yesterday so would be nice with an update . 

 

 


The flip tournaments that they had to change caused an issue with the leaderboard updating. The developers were working on it but that was on Thursday and it is weekend now. Unfortunately I think there is a good chance we will have no updates for the final 2 days of the series.

Not actually Old.
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