Challenges - Suggestions & Feedback

[Chris-Unibet]

I'm creating this thread so that we can discuss our loyalty scheme: Challenges.

I'll start with what's coming up.

For the start of Q3 in July, we are:

• Removing the most discarded challenges:
  "Be dealt a pair, then the next hand be dealt a higher pair" (NLHE Minor)
  "Be dealt a suited hand, then be dealt the same hand offsuit in the following hand" (NLHE Minor)
  "Have a full house when you reach the river" (NLHE Major)
  "Be dealt a hand with exactly three diamonds straight after one containing exactly three hearts" (PLO Minor)
  
  They're the most discarded because they have a higher variance. People tend to prefer challenges with more steps when they can see a progression rather than 1 step challenges. 

• Adding New ones:
  "3-bet (re-raise) when you are in the big blind and win the hand (pre or postflop)" (NLHE Minor)
  "Have a pair of aces on the flop using one of your hole cards" (NLHE Minor)
  "Be dealt a pair, then in the next 5 hands be dealt a higher pair at least once" (NLHE Minor)
  "Be dealt a hand, then be dealt the same hand in the following hand (suits don't matter)" (NLHE Minor)
  "Have a full house using at least one of your hole cards" (NLHE Minor)
  "Fold a hand preflop containing all four suits" (PLO Minor)
  "Be dealt a hand with exactly three diamonds" (PLO Minor)
  
  Some of them are variations of challenges we're removing but with less variance (and therefore with more steps).
  Others are challenges that you have some control over.

You will also be able to discard up to 2 challenges of each type per month instead of 1 now

 

Any suggestions or feedback, please share in that thread! :) 

[MoreTBC]

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@Chris-Unibet wrote:

• "Have a pair of aces on the flop using one of your hole cards" (NLHE Minor)

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I'm assuming you wouldn't complete this if you have AA preflop and the flop is 267 so would it not be better to reword it to 'using only one of your hole cards'? If Aces preflop count 'using one or both of your hole cards'.

[psrquack]

The be dealt on the hand contains JQT on the flop is still existing challenge? I play Omaha but I think those challenge is one of the hardest one.

[jonny2192]

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@psrquack wrote:

The be dealt on the hand contains JQT on the flop is still existing challenge? I play Omaha but I think those challenge is one of the hardest one.

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Hate this one with a passion.

I agree the challenges where you can see progression are more fun, even though you can get lucky and finish a 1/1 quickly your never sure if you will.

Where as if I am at 33/50 of a challenge I will play till I reach the 50 because I can see the progression.

 

Dont envy you the job of trying to think up challenges its was hard enough thinking of of few cards for davstone.

[Chris-Unibet]

Yes "Reach a flop of QJT in any order or suit" is a NLHE Major and it's still there. People discard this one quite often though so maybe worth looking at it too. Being able to discard two challenges of each type per month should help though. 
With 20 NLHE Major Challenges (~ 2,000 hands each) it's very unlikely you'll see it even twice during a month. 

[Chris-Unibet]

I'll double check how "Have a pair of aces on the flop using one of your hole cards" is coded but I believe it doesn't work with AA preflop (that doesnt flop anything) indeed. 

It doesn't hurt to add "only one of your hole cards" indeed!

 

Thanks :)

[MoreTBC]

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@Chris-Unibet wrote:

I'll double check how "Have a pair of aces on the flop using one of your hole cards" is coded but I believe it doesn't work with AA preflop (that doesnt flop anything) indeed. 

 

It doesn't hurt to add "only one of your hole cards" indeed!

 

Thanks :)

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It could say 'Flop a pair of aces using one of your hole cards'

If you want to be really pedantic you could argue that in it's current structure if you have 45 preflop and the flop comes AAK you technically have a pair of aces on the flop and are using one of your cards to complete your hand (AAK45).

 

Unrelated, is there a list of all the existing challenges? It would be good to see what's currently is on rotation before trying to create suggestions for additional challenges.

[WuDu]

The major challenge I hate the most, because I'm sitting there for over a week now is "flop a flush or better (3x)". The most stupid one I had to click away was "have the ace of spades on the river". I mean, if you really plan on players seeing more river cards, why not change "ace of spades" to "any ace" and mutiply the amount of cards needed to complete the challenge by 4? That would mean a lot less variance when it comes to time needed to complete. Similar situation when it comes to "be dealt 72 when first to act".

On a personal level, I'd prefer if you used some of the achievement badges and transformed them into challenges. Those achievements are just sitting there not being useful at all, despite a lot of them having potential.

 

[komarac]

I was reading and posting in 2+2 thread, and there was about 10-15 requests to remove minor NLHE challenge win a hand where at least 3 players saw a flop. 

this quarter I played less then before but  I'll reach 1,25M, so I have much more experience with completing challenges then most posters in this thread. 

maybe when you're looking at your whole database this challenge is not so hard to complete because at nl4 there are lot of multiway pots and it's much easier to win them, also at lower stakes it's rare that you need to play 3 or 4 handed, but if you fileter only nl100+ stakes, or even nl50+, I'm sure that this challenge should reward much more points. 

 

there are lot less 3 way pots, also in late hours I'm playing 4 handed or even 3 handed, and in that time it's almost impossible to clear it, so if I get it when tables are not full I rather quit my session. 

Also when I focus on clearing that challenge sometimes I need more flops then for some easier majors.

[finamala]

of those suggested, I don't like this one - "Have a full house using at least one of your hole cards", somehow looks more like a Major but with fewer steps I guess.

Also, I'm a bit concerned that 3bet when in BB could get abused maybe by some players.  

And I am really surprised that you are still keeping "flop QJT" because that one is the most boring ever. Really.

Also, it would be good if you added how many steps is required to clear each of these so we can better see if we like it or not...

btw, I also have a proposition for a Major: "See a flop consisting of cards of the same suit" x5

 

[Sect7G]

I think seeing a flop with running cards like 456 or 756 in any order would be a good minor/major challenge.

[Andrew]

Just posting to add the idea of having payouts every 10k points to 100k - more frequency early on gives more reason for people to play at that stage.  

I think we've also discussed having excess points carry over from 500k rather than 1m.  That reduces the number of people who might stop for the quarter a week early.

[Sect7G]

The more I think about the rollover of points I think all points should be rolled over or a cash credit (bonus maybe) for leftover points instead of rolling them over.  It doesn't make sense to me that Unibet will give players credit for partway completed challenges but not give payment for finishing halfway to the next milestone.

As it is I'm sure many stop playing upon completing a milestone if they don't feel there's enough time to complete the next one.  To proove this theory Unibet should look at traffic leading up to the end of the quarters.  If play increases it shows that the consumer is aware of milestones and wants to complete them in time.  Therefore it's very unlikely that the same player wouldn't realize tthat they won't be able to hit another milestone and with 0 compensation he's probably smart enough to take a few days off or play elsewhere.  Without seeing the numbers I'm fairly confident that play does increase in the last few weeks.  I haven't noticed because I haven't logged a poker hand in the past week due to just completing a milestone.

[Andrew]

The reason we don't roll everything over is that it costs more.  We already spend more on loyalty than most sites, and we can't spend another 1% of revenue or whatever.  If we allowed everything to roll over, we need to save that money somewhere else.  

It may well be that that's a good idea, but it's a risky thing to trial as it's a relatively large change.  Having a smaller step (1m to 500k) would let us look at some of the advantages without much of the cost.

[Sect7G]

True it's more cost but you're also losing revenue by people (like myself) who don't play due to not wanting to be caught between milestones.  Regardless 500k is a big improvement over 1 million and I hope you constantly evaluate dropping it further.  I player who logs 300k points isn't likely to quit playing the next quarter and say thanks for the 25k points or whatever.

[Chris-Unibet]

Hi ,

As requested, please find all Challenges we currently use. In red is what's changing from 1st July.

NLHE MINOR	FREQUENCY
Be dealt any pair for two hands in a row	2
Raise with a hand and win preflop	25
Be dealt AA	2
Be dealt a pair	30
Be dealt two hearts in your starting hand	25
Be dealt one of AK suited, QKs, QJs, or JTs	5
Be dealt T2	5
Be dealt suited cards three hands in a row	5
Be dealt a pair, then the next be dealt a higher pair	1
Have everyone fold to you when you are in the big blind	15
Be dealt a suited hand	100
Be dealt a suited hand, then be dealt the same hand offsuit in the following hand	1
Be dealt QQ+ in the big blind	1
Be dealt 72 when first to act	1
3-bet preflop (re-raise) with AA, KK, QQ or AK	3
Be dealt into a hand where the last two digits of the hand number are 99	5
Have the ace of spades as one of your holecards	25
Have the rank of both of your holecards add up to eight or less (aces are high)	50
Have everyone fold to you preflop when you are in the small blind	50
Bet with AA, KK, QQ or JJ when you are the first to act preflop	2
Fold A2, A3, A4 or A5 offsuit preflop when you are first to act	2
Be dealt a suited connector (suited and consecutive hole cards) and see a flop	5
Win a pot where at least 3 players have seen the flop	20
Play (call, bet, raise or re-raise) from the button preflop	40
Reach a flop of only non-face cards (no J, Q or K)	50
Be dealt two hands in a row that contain an ace	10
Fold a hand preflop countaining a 2	50
3-bet (re-raise) when you are in the big blind and win the hand (pre or postflop)	3
Have a pair of aces on the flop using one of your hole cards	5
Be dealt a pair, then in the next 5 hands be dealt a higher pair at least once	4
Be dealt a hand, then be dealt the same hand in the following hand (suits don't matter)	5
NLHE MAJOR	FREQUENCY
Reach a flop of QJT in any order or suit	2
Reach the river when the turn and river pair (e.g. a board of A-J-3-9-9)	20
Reach the river when it comes the ace of spades	5
Make a set on the flop using both hole cards	10
Make a straight on the flop	3
Have a full house when you reach the river	10
Reach a flop that contains at least two cards with the rank of 7	10
Reach a flop consisting only of cards with the rank 2, 3, 4 or 5	15
Reach a flop where the first and third cards are of the same rank (e.g. J-7-J)	35
Reach a flop where the first card is a heart, the second a diamond and the third a club	10
Reach the turn when it comes an ace	30
Reach a flop where the cards add up to 26 or more. Jacks, queens, kings and aces don't count.	10
Make a flush or better on the flop	3
Reach a flop with two cards ranked J or higher, and one card ranked 2	15
Have a pair higher than any of the flop cards after 3-betting preflop (a 3-bet is where you re-raise)	5
Bet preflop, reach a flop with only one picture card, then win with one bet (aces count)	20
Call a bet in the big blind preflop, then win the hand postflop (pre-flop all-in doesn't count)	30
Win a hand at showdown	100
Win a hand postflop when you have any hand worse than one pair	35
Make a straight containing an ace	4
Have a full house using at least one of your hole cards	10
PLO MINOR	FREQUENCY
Have three cards of the same rank in your starting hand (e.g. 4-7-7-7)	5
Have all four cards of the same suit in your starting hand	5
Have two pairs in your starting hand (e.g. 5-5-8-8)	5
Have a four card straight in your starting hand, aces can be high or low (e.g. 4-5-6-7)	5
Be dealt into a hand where the last two digits of the hand number are 99	5
Be dealt a hand containing all four suits two hands in a row	5
Fold a hand preflop with three cards of the same rank	3
Fold a hand preflop consisting of only one suit	3
Be dealt a hand containing all four suits	40
Be dealt a hand containing two cards ranked 7	15
Be dealt a hand containing only picture cards (aces count)	3
Be dealt a hand with no cards higher than a 7 (aces do not count)	20
Be dealt a hand containing three consecutive cards to a straight flush	5
Be dealt a hand containing two aces	15
Be dealt three hands in a row that contain an ace	10
Be dealt a hand with exactly three diamonds straight after one containing exactly three hearts	1
Be dealt two pairs on the button	1
Be dealt a hand containing three clubs and one spade	5
Be dealt a hand containing the ace of spades and the ace of clubs	2
Have everyone fold to you preflop when you are in the small blind	25
Fold a hand preflop containing all four suits	30
Play (call, bet, raise or re-raise) a double suited hand	50
Be dealt a hand with exactly three diamonds	20
PLO MAJOR	FREQUENCY
Make four of a kind using two holecards, one turn card, and one flop card	1
Reach a flop of three of a kind (e.g. a flop of 5-5-5)	2
Reach the river when each successive board card has a higher rank (e.g. a board of 3-5-8-9-K)	2
Have four of a kind on the turn	2
On the flop, have a flush that includes the ace in your hand	2
Flop an ace high straight using an ace from your hand	1
Make a full house using the river card	20
Have a set on the flop and then in the same hand, make a straight or flush on the turn	1
Have a flush on the flop using two holecards	10
Pair three of your holecards of different rank with three cards from the board	25
On the turn, have a flush that includes the turn card	20
Make a straight on the turn	35
Flop two backdoor flushdraws at once (e.g. hold two clubs and two hearts, see one club and one heart on the flop)	40
On the flop, have a full house or better	10
On the flop, have a set of aces using two holecards	5
Reach a flop after 3-betting preflop (a 3-bet is when you re-raise)	70
Bet preflop, reach a paired flop in position, then win with one bet	5
Bet preflop, reach a flop with only one suit in position, then win with one bet	2
Call a bet in the big blind preflop, then win the hand postflop (pre-flop all-in doesn't count)	40
Win a hand at showdown	150

[Chris-Unibet]

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@WuDu wrote:

The major challenge I hate the most, because I'm sitting there for over a week now is "flop a flush or better (3x)". The most stupid one I had to click away was "have the ace of spades on the river". I mean, if you really plan on players seeing more river cards, why not change "ace of spades" to "any ace" and mutiply the amount of cards needed to complete the challenge by 4? That would mean a lot less variance when it comes to time needed to complete. Similar situation when it comes to "be dealt 72 when first to act".

On a personal level, I'd prefer if you used some of the achievement badges and transformed them into challenges. Those achievements are just sitting there not being useful at all, despite a lot of them having potential.

 

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Make a flush or better on the flop takes ~ 1,764 hands to do it fully (3 times). It's slightly lower than average but it has a higher variance than most. Only Reach a flop of QJT in any order or suit has a higher variance for NLHE Major ones and it seems to be one that many players dislike for the same reason.

We've started removing the higher variance ones but at the same time, I'm not sure if we should aim to remove them all. I understand that most players prefer low variance ones, where you can actually see some progression and I agree it works better to have a large majority of that type. However, I assume some players may enjoy the higher variance ones too. 

As per achievements, I'll go through them but the easy thing about achievements is that they dont trigger any prize. Many achievements require players to do something very unusual (folding AA preflop, winning a hand with 7-2, play 666 hands in an hour, win a pot by raising an opponent bet by the minimum amount allowed etc...). Problem with those is that you could be stuck in one challenge forever pretty easily if you don't pay attention. It doesn't matter for an achievement but it does matter if we had them to challenges. There's also a huge difference between the number of hands it takes for someone who try to complete them and someone who doesn't know/care. 

I'll go through the list though. 

[Chris-Unibet]

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@komarac wrote:

I was reading and posting in 2+2 thread, and there was about 10-15 requests to remove minor NLHE challenge win a hand where at least 3 players saw a flop.

...

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Yes, this challenge is indeed easier to complete at lower stakes and at peak times. That compensates for some other challenges that work the other way around:

Have everyone fold to you when you are in the big blind 

Have everyone fold to you preflop when you are in the small blind

Win a hand at showdown

Win a hand postflop when you have any hand worse than one pair

These ones are easier when tables are short handed (and some are easier at higher stakes where players are tighter). So indeed, Win a pot where at least 3 players have seen the flop is not the best challenge for you when you're playing short-handed tables but it's quite hard to find a good balance without making it boring. We could choose challenges that takes the exact same amount of hands to complete for everyone, no matter what you do and what your opponents do and we have some of them already but if we go 100% in that direction, it's not gonna be very fun.

[MoreTBC]

Thanks for that  :)

 

Silly question but 'frequency' is how many times you have to complete the criteria to complete the challenge?

[Chris-Unibet]

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@MoreTBC wrote:

Thanks for that @Chris-Unibet :)

 

Silly question but 'frequency' is how many times you have to complete the criteria to complete the challenge?

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Yes, exactly.

[MoreTBC]

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@Andrew-Unibet wrote:

The reason we don't roll everything over is that it costs more.  We already spend more on loyalty than most sites, and we can't spend another 1% of revenue or whatever.  If we allowed everything to roll over, we need to save that money somewhere else.  

It may well be that that's a good idea, but it's a risky thing to trial as it's a relatively large change.  Having a smaller step (1m to 500k) would let us look at some of the advantages without much of the cost.

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Did we not discuss the possibility of getting a % of your points in between levels rolled over on 2+2? (100% at 1m+, 50% between 500k-1m, 25% between 100k-500k etc.)

[CVMCVMCVM]

Hi,

Can you modify this rule "Reach flop with at least three other players still in the pot" into a "Reach flop with at least two other players still in the pot or Reach flop with at least two other players still in the pot and win the pot ". Im playing Texas holdem 50nl and up and the pots with 4 players involved are very very very few. This rule seams to be made for 4NL or omaha. Why quads didnt get in this promotion any points?

[Andrew]

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@MoreTBC wrote:

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Did we not discuss the possibility of getting a % of your points in between levels rolled over on 2+2? (100% at 1m+, 50% between 500k-1m, 25% between 100k-500k etc.)

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I prefer not doing that because the system is already so complicated.  Adding layers of complexity makes it harder for everyone else to understand.

[Chris-Unibet]

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@CVMCVMCVM wrote:

Hi,

Can you modify this rule "Reach flop with at least three other players still in the pot" into a "Reach flop with at least two other players still in the pot or Reach flop with at least two other players still in the pot and win the pot ". Im playing Texas holdem 50nl and up and the pots with 4 players involved are very very very few. This rule seams to be made for 4NL or omaha. Why quads didnt get in this promotion any points?

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Hi,

I've replied about it earlier in the thread:

@Chris-Unibet wrote:

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Yes, this challenge is indeed easier to complete at lower stakes and at peak times. That compensates for some other challenges that work the other way around:

Have everyone fold to you when you are in the big blind 

Have everyone fold to you preflop when you are in the small blind

Win a hand at showdown

Win a hand postflop when you have any hand worse than one pair

These ones are easier when tables are short handed (and some are easier at higher stakes where players are tighter). So indeed, Win a pot where at least 3 players have seen the flop is not the best challenge for you when you're playing short-handed tables but it's quite hard to find a good balance without making it boring. We could choose challenges that takes the exact same amount of hands to complete for everyone, no matter what you do and what your opponents do and we have some of them already but if we go 100% in that direction, it's not gonna be very fun.

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 But I agree 3 players is probably too high. I believe we'll change it for Q4 to "2 players" instead of 3 then. 

 

[Sweeedeeen]

You can limp preflop and it will be 3+ way pot :)

I agree that sometimes this challenge may be not easy, but sometimes it is no problem.

As well as fold everyone to sb, sometimes it very easy, but sometimes players openraise 100% button :)

I think that challenges is ~good. Maybe will be better to pay attention to the achievements