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Challenge for Belgians !!??


Check_Norris

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This stuff is outrageous. Once again the gambling commission shows its true colors. This is not at all about protecting the players but about some ridiculous political agenda that is biased and extremely selective in targeting the low/midstakes poker community in any way they see fit. We need Unibet and the poker community in general to speak out against this type of BS. Soon we will all be playing on shady apps like PPPoker and PokerBros and we'll be at the mercy of so-called 'club managers' whether or not we will receive the bitcoins to our wallets... This is a major step backwards in the legalization process of something that we are getting some form of control on, right at a time that we need progressive legalization measures more than ever.

For now, I'll keep playing on Unibet since I enjoy playing here and respect the company and their views on poker. But nothing is holding me back from trying out the unregulated sites/apps once I go on a downswing again and enjoy the juicy games (with actually unprotected and possibly vulnerable players), win more and most of all never have to declare any taxes once I win big or go semi-professional.

The real degenerates are not the players, but the regulators who take totally irrational decisions, don't communicate, persist in their limited mindset and label everyone who says otherwise as opposition. The characteristics of a true problem gambler if you ask me.

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • 2 weeks later...

Will this topic die silently?

There has to be something we can do.. This new regulation is protecting companies' profit margins rather than players. I don't know how much the Belgian/Danish/Swedish Unibet market accounts for, but it would be polite for Unibet to come forward on this issue and either state that they are actually making more money on these players rather than other country's players. Rakeback is at least 10% on Unibet, that is potentially a huge profit in this kind of market I think?
Or even better, to acknowledge that they too are fighting back against this ridiculous regulation (with transparent communication, data, research into player bases shifting to illegal networks, ...) and that we, the players, are not on our own in this david vs goliath fight.

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  • 4 weeks later...

i think it's not that difficult to be honnest.

just a rake change for Belgian players or a normal rakeback system would solve the problem instead of promotions, spins or other rng systems.

pokerstars has the same issue with the chest rewards.
so the only website we can play with legit rackeback is partypoker (bwin in belgium) (this is the only one that also has a legal license to offer online poker.)

I do hope they will solve this issue because i was planning to start my sng grind on unibet as always but right now that's out of the question.

 

also something i said on my own topic.
Their is only 1 winner right now and it's not the players or the government but it's unibet since they can easily let this topic die and keep all the rake for them which i hope they don't but seeing that this topic did not get any respond for a month makes me guess they are choosing the 'put it on the long road' option which is sad.

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@Petit_pertotal, Does Bwin still have a loyalty system/rakeback in Belgium? You got some screenshots showing the details of how it works? - can't see much without being logged in.

If they're still running with rakeback, maybe there's a way for us to do something different from challenges.

 

It's not a simple as you make it sound. The technical complexity is significant - lowering the rake on just one or two markets comes with a lot of challenges. If it was simple, everyone would do it, and none have managed so far :)

We're of course keeping Belgium and Sweden in mind for future development, and we do want to offer better terms in these markets where the regulator isn't considering poker, when they write the laws.

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Check the latest poker release notes. Have a look at our poker promotions

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@Onefloatyboi wrote:

Will this topic die silently?

There has to be something we can do.. This new regulation is protecting companies' profit margins rather than players. I don't know how much the Belgian/Danish/Swedish Unibet market accounts for, but it would be polite for Unibet to come forward on this issue and either state that they are actually making more money on these players rather than other country's players. Rakeback is at least 10% on Unibet, that is potentially a huge profit in this kind of market I think?

Or even better, to acknowledge that they too are fighting back against this ridiculous regulation (with transparent communication, data, research into player bases shifting to illegal networks, ...) and that we, the players, are not on our own in this david vs goliath fight.


@Onefloatyboi I can assure you it's not in our interest that we can't do promotions or offer rakeback - look at the stock price ;) Yes, we end up giving less back from promotions, but as you can see from this thread, people also stop playing or play less. If you can play on a non-regulated site and get rakeback, of course some will be tempted by this. I think the sad reality is that the regulations are made with casino and betting in mind, and poker is really forgotten about, or the product isn't understood properly. 

We can't share all details about what's going on behind the scene, or share any details about communication with any regulator, before something is official. What I can say is that we'd love to bring back challenges or have something similar in place. Long-term we will look into other possible solutions, but it really is long-term (+1 year).

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what i am curious for is if still a lot of belgians play now on unibet after these changes?

it's been two months now? did a lot of them withdraw and get out (like me)?

i'm sorry for unibet, but i hope loads did quit! maybe they will change their minds, because they will gather less revenue.

 

btw: i sometimes do sports bets and i notice that sites like bwin and napoleon games can still do odds boosts, isn't this also some kind of promo?

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I think the gamblers will stay anyway because they don't care about rake and rakeback.
but the serious players that like to get an edge and grind who make calculated decisions have no options anymore on any website..

I was planning to grind sngs again but instead i am just playing my satellite tickets as recreation instead of grinding and this will be the end for Belgium in online poker.. as we all know our government is the muppet show & fawlty towers in 1 + the next ellection will be about migration, economy, .. and poker won't be a topic i think. so my guess..
1- if you are a reaaaaal pro / grinder move to another country like Kenny Hallaert (moved to London) or Michael Gathy (moved to Malta)
2 - go play live poker in casino's? (if rake is oke? no experience so don't know if this is a good move)
3 - Find another hobby / side income?
4 - if nothing gets fixed find an illegal website? (don't think that is a topic that can be discussed here..)
5 - Wait untill (hopefully) platforms we love to play like unibet gets a work around.

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@Petit_pertotal  Yeah FeelsBadMan, but it could be worse not having online poker at all, like the USA.
Honestly if you rely on rakeback you shouldn't play poker professionally in the first place, you should look at it as a bonus not as a necessity. 

Do you think live players get rakeback? Or the people that grind private games?

 

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hey Freedom i do know we could still grind and be profitable but knowing that you lose some ev because of this and the higher stakes you upscale the more impact (disadvantage) you have is a major factor.

as you know from my sng blog my roi was nice (without rakeback) but still this was on micro stakes.
If you see other blogs who play for example 25€ sng's and are good players they are slightly profitable in roi% on major samples so most profit is from rakeback there (or at least a good part of it..)

but indeed if you play the micros the impact is less and it's more a motivation disadvantage (but big enough for even me who had 15% roi quit the grind scene untill it's solved)

as you know i am not the gambler type or addicted type and i see poker more as a business but if you can't upscale with the same variance as others it's not worth it.

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i know that you should be winning a poker, also without rakeback, but if you're from belgium, you're just fed up with government decisions, for exemple i refuse to do extra hours on my job, because when you work extra hours you get taxed so high on it, it's just not worth it, same now with these poker rules, it just demotivates you to play, because you're so tired of these horrible regulations in every possible situation in life...

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Ye wannes same here..

I have a side business and I would like to invest the money I make every year in stocks,.. But because our taxes I would lose 70% of my money I made in a year.. So I need to spent most of my business money to more useless things.

 

But still spending it to useless things (that are fiscal oke) or giving it to the government is an easy choice..

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It's of topic but this is about my last post and that one from wannes

My side buesiness

At first you need to pay "province tax" this is a fixed amount for east flanders 120 / year 

Then the income tax, in my case this is 50% because I am in "schijf 4"

Screenshot_20200606_133007_com.android.chrome.thumb.jpg.6cfc022edb71216a522f17de3c3e9e4b.jpg

Then you have the Municipal surcharges this is 7% (50%+7% of 50% is 53,5% from net profit

Then I need to pay social contribution, this is 20,5 %

So in total its about 74% taxes if I would invest my money. And because of this reason I make costs on purpose so they can't tax me because I almost have 0 net profit. 


Example :

My side business makes 30k.. When you do the math I would have 7.8k to invest and pay 22.2k to the government (BIG NONO!)

 

If I make 30k and spend it on for example a car and stuff,.. And my profit is small like 1500 euro or something  then I only have to pay like (760 income tax, 120 province tax, free social contributions because my net profit is below 1500 euro)

So in this case I make 30k spend 28,5k to a car lease and other stuff, keep 620 net profit and pay only 880 to taxes

 

But as I said I would prefer to invest it for later but that's not possible unless you don't mind to pay 73% taxes. If I charge an. Hourly rate of 50 euro (excl. 21%Vat' so customer pays 60,5 per hour) and choose this option then I need to pay 36,5 (50*0.73)taxes for this hour and keep 13,5 euro net profit...

 

 

 

But

 

On the other side our guvernment sometimes have leaks as well for example if you bought a house before 2020 (which I did) you get every year about 1k free at income tax and from year 11 untill 30 600 free euro a year so - > 22k net free money

 

And now yesterday that did prove a law that only in 2021 you get 1.5k free if you place a sunroof 

With other words my sunroof will cost me 5k but you can use a free green loan from the government as well so after this is done in 2020 I didn't invest anything, get to keep 1.5k free taxes plus just need to pay my almost interest free green loan instead of paying my electricity bill.. 

And after my free loan (3-5 year) I get free electricity for the next 15 years or something and the government makes the investment for you because of the green loan plus they give you 1.5k to do it.. So our government also gives things.. The problem is that you need to make use of those things immediately because like now the 22k free over 30 years law is already gone but because I did it last year then can't take it away anymore and they need to pay me for the next 29 years.. Plus like this law from yesterday about sunroofs it's only possible in 2021 for the 1.5k free taxes and in 2022 its 75% anymore, 2023 25% 2024 you get nothing anymore.. 

Example in 2021 I get 1k free money because I bought a house in 2019 plus get 1.5k free money because I will place a sunroof on cost of the government =2.5k net free untaxed money. 

So in my opinion you need to pay a ton of taxes unless you play it tax smart in my plan 2 for a side business and every year you need to check if the guvernment did fiscal changes where you can profit on like the 2 things mentioned in the last part of the post. 

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  • 3 weeks later...
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Guys, over a month has past and still no changes. Look at the size of this topic. 

The truth is, that many sites are still offering some form of bonusses to the players. Myself I have won a 1k ticket on bwin recently. And I get a dailly 'odds boost' on sportsbet there too.

There are many ways around this new vague and completely clueless law.

You guys have a responsibility against your loyal Belgian players. We know there is a new law. There are multiple ways to work past this in a legal way. A free 5k tournament for Belgian players who rake 

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