April community league points scoring - we need to hear your thoughts

[JeppeL]

We're putting the finishing touches on the April Community Poker League and we'd like to hear your opinion on how points should be scored. Which of the following two possibilites would you prefer and why?:

1. The amount of points available for each tournament is calculated on the total number of registered community members playing in the tournament.
2. The amount of points available for each tournametnt is calculated on the total number of registered players playing in the tournament. 

Personally, I see both pros and cons for each way to score the points. Basing it on only the registered number of community players might make it more fair in terms of competition, as it's only community members who are competing for the leaderboard prizes. But basing it on the total number of registered players would make it possible for us to provide som lists, E.G if there are 110 total players, then 1st get X amount of points, 2nd gets X amount of points and so forth.

Looking forward to hearing what you think, we're a bit divided on the subject here at the office :)

[Goat]

How about making it a mix of both, for example:

points = x*number_of_registered_players + y*number_of_community_members , x, y between 0 and 1 obviously

[MoreTBC]

I'd prefer to see it based on community players registered instead total players.

Based on the assumption that the formula is roughly the one being used now (which was created by some sort of genius btw, he should really get a medal for that ;)) then it would be just as easy to create a table giving example points based on participants as it would using total entrants in the formula. I think community members also would limit the fluctuation in points given out in NLHE over PLO events if there is a big gap in entrants. (I don't know what the fields were this month)

Any way you can limit non-league players and influences in how the league pans out would be a good thing IMO.

[JeppeL]

I see your point @MoreTBC, but the problem as I see it, is that you can't know how many actual members are playing in any community tournament - they aren't highlighted in the poker lobby and you might end up playing with someone who you think isn't a member but really he/she is.

 

It's no secret that I'm for basing it on the total overall number of players, I think would be pretty cool that knowing how many points are played for is easy and you can do your own calculations when playing E.G "if X finishes 7th, then I have to get into the top 2 to get ahead of him".

 

@Goat I like your suggestion from a general point of view, but I'd like to set up some tables to show that with 100 players you get X points for 1st, 2nd and 3rd etc. Combining the two would make these tables anything but simple :)

[vaisto]

How about a third choice: same amount of points in every tournament no matter how many players registered. A bit like "points guaranteed" same way as tournament have prize pool guaranteed.

Cons:

- might seem unfair if some tournaments have lots of players and others not so many

Pros:

- might encourage people to play more: "Hey, this tournament has so few players, so there is good value in points, I'll join...".

- simplifies point calculating and explaining rules how many points we get: "Finally a points formula I can understand without a degree in math"

In theory the "point value incentive to play" should make it so that no tournaments have very few players, so that would mostly negate the cons part...

 

[MoreTBC]

You'll know they're members because they -should- be using their community alias though :)

The way I look at the league is that I'm just trying to finish as high as possible in each one, not finish 7th in one because player x finished 9th and I need an extra point. These calculations really only come into play in the last MTT of the month as far as I can see and are not as relevant when there is the actual prize pool to play for. Below the top 5 possibly you're not really going to be calculating anything because just winning an event is worth more than the league bonus. If you're in the top 5 chances are you need to finish 1st to beat the guy above you anyway so there s nothing to work out.

If there was a table like the old Butler points table then players could make a rough estimate on where they need to finish. "I need to finish in x position" isn't really something you can dictate in poker, unless it's last :)

[WuDu]

I think it's called "COMMUNITY" league, then it's only logical that only community members should be awarded points and that only the amount of community members playing should determine the amount of points. Simply make a seperate ranking of all the community members in a specific tournament and award the points accordingly. I mean first and foremost, you play for money and not for points.

But in my opinion, it's more important that you eliminate all the angle-shooting with the player aliases and that would automatically happen with Option 1. Like I "forgot" 🤣 to register with my community name, can I still get points? Or I took down the tournament, but I wasn't a community member, but now I signed up, can I get my points?

 

[JeppeL]

@vaisto We might decide to go with your proposal, I've been arguing for it quite a bit the last couple of weeks and personally I think it's great all around :)

@MoreTBC In theory you're right, but between new members and lurkers there's a good chance you'll be playing with someone who didn't know was a member :)

You're right that it's a lot more viable when it comes down to the last tournaments, but it's not only when it comes to your opponents and their finishing positions. Imagine that you already have 3 qualifying point scores, one of 31, one of 23 and one of 12. Wouldn't it be great to know, that if you E.G finish 12 or higher of all players in the tournament, then you replace the 12 with a 15?

[MoreTBC]

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@JeppeL wrote:

Imagine that you already have 3 qualifying point scores, one of 31, one of 23 and one of 12. Wouldn't it be great to know, that if you E.G finish 12 or higher of all players in the tournament, then you replace the 12 with a 15?

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It would be nice to know yes, but It wouldn't change how I played. I'm going for gold in every tournament, the points are a bonus. The difference between knowing how many points I have/potential finishing place in the league and just reading it here the next day are minimal IMO. Also, I'd want 31 points again, not 15 :) Finishing 1st gives me the most points, that's all I really need to know, the rest is just excel work for you guys :)

[MoreTBC]

Also, standard points regardless of entrants is madness! In what world is beating a field of 200 the same as beating a field of 50?

[LittlestHobo]

- no easy 'catch-all' answer to this one I think - but I tend to err on the side of points based on total entries in each mtt, as it seems fairer really, and players will have a better idea of how many points they will get/need in each leg - I'd personally prefer it to be community members only, with a pw protected entry, but I understand this will probably limit numbers , and mean the guarantee would have to be lowered or removed, so maybe not so good for Unibet itself.

- I don't think that 'angle-shooting' is a serious issue here btw, as the rules are pretty-clear for all  - and the revamped system and more players has already 'fixed' the issue of excessive pre-flop time-banking, which is deffo "angle-shooting" imho, and spoils the game for the majority who want to play hands/accumulate chips and most importantly, HAVE FUN! ;) 

- I do, however, think that more than 3 games should count towards the scoring, as this way would 'reward' regulars more, and make each game and point more valuable, and the swings in positions less drastic , as befitting a league-structure.  (Maybe best 4 of 8, or 5 of 10 in months that have more legs).

Cheers! :)

[BillyR23]

The format in March was pretty awesome and I wouldn't change too much...

Also, I was lucky to participate in a few Butler's leagues and I think the points table was good, here a copy of it:

Looking forward for the community league in April :) 

[JeppeL]

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@MoreTBC wrote:

Also, standard points regardless of entrants is madness! In what world is beating a field of 200 the same as beating a field of 50?

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It isn't, but what I probably should have mentioned is, that for April we'll have three tournaments each week. One on Tuesday with no guarantee, one on Thursday €400 GTD and one €600 GTD for Sundays. 

 

I don't want to have it so you have to have a Sunday win to finish at the top of the leaderboard, and conversely I feel that for the league points, the No Gurantee should be just as valuable to take part in.(this one should have a higher ratio of community members playing than the others). As Vaisto mentions, it would make the all the tournaments attractive for the league - even though the tournaments themselves attract different crowds. 

Edit: Also, the highest ranking community member for each tournament will play in a 1K SNG against each other, so even though we'd have a set amount of points a win still holds extra value :)

[JeppeL]

@WuDu I've added this to the terms and conditions of the league and I think it covers:

- Only members of the community can earn points towards the leaderboard.
 If you've finished in a point earning position without being a member of the community, you can register and let us know about it to which we'll make an exception and add you to the leaderboard. 

- All players must play using a poker alias identical or similar to you community alias.
If you play in a community league tournament using an alias not identical or similar to your community alias, the first time you'll earn the points equal to finishing one position lower. E.G if you finish 2nd of all registered community members but play using the incorrect alias, you'll instead receive points equal to that of the 3rd position of all registered community members.

Winners SNG:

-The highest ranking community member, who's also a member at the time of the start of the qualifying tournament, will earn a spot into the "Winners SNG"

- If you finish as the highest ranking member of a community tournament, but did not play the tournament using a poker alias identical or similar to your community alias, you will not qualify for the SNG.

[MoreTBC]

Tuesday :(

 

If you're varying the GTD and the buy-in then it's pretty close to being just like a MTT League promo run normally.

 

In an ideal world you would have to pre-register on the forum before the month started and then the points could be fixed because you're only playing against comm members. Your actual finish in the tourney doesn't dictate the points, just your finish in relation to everyone else.

[BroederTuck]

I'm leaning more towards a points system that is calculated on the total number of registered players than on the total number of community registered players. This is, because if I'm not mistaking, when you play a community league MTT of let's say 100 entrants and there only 2 community members in it (hypothetical) of which the first community member finishes 98 and the other one wins the tournament, the difference in points is negligible I believe? Which is quite ridiculous of course.

I also agree with @JeppeL that I think it's more fun when there's some transparency about how high you need to end to improve your score so you have something to aim at, despite the few who only have their eyes on the gold @MoreTBC 😃

@JeppeL wrote:

@WuDu I've added this to the terms and conditions of the league and I think it covers:

- Only members of the community can earn points towards the leaderboard.
 If you've finished in a point earning position without being a member of the community, you can register and let us know about it to which we'll make an exception and add you to the leaderboard. 

 

Also agree with @WuDu that you shouln't be able to obtain points when you're not a community member. It's a community league after all so it seems logical to me that you can only win points when you have signed up with an account to the community and not the other way around, where you win first and then sign up.

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[BonusPater]

If we were to go with the number of players and not members, we'd need to also go with a fixed point structure where e.g. 1st place always gives 50 points, 2nd 45 points etc. The issue with the fixed structure is, as highlighted above, that you'll fight for the same number of points, no matter if it's a no GTD tournament or a € 1000 GTD tournament (we'll have both next month) - likely that there'll be more than a 100 % difference in the # of players.

Personally I prefer the current format, but there're advantages and disadvantages with all structures :) 

[JeppeL]

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@Stubbe-Unibet wrote:

If we were to go with the number of players and not members, we'd need to also go with a fixed point structure where e.g. 1st place always gives 50 points, 2nd 45 points etc. The issue with the fixed structure is, as highlighted above, that you'll fight for the same number of points, no matter if it's a no GTD tournament or a € 1000 GTD tournament (we'll have both next month) - likely that there'll be more than a 100 % difference in the # of players.

Personally I prefer the current format, but there're advantages and disadvantages with all structures :) 

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What if we went with the overall number of players, but instead made the Sunday 400 euro guaranteed as well? This should keep the overall number of players about the same for Thursday and Sunday(keep in mind that the 1000 euro GTD will be 10 euro buy in). Tuesday will probably be a bit less, but that's alright IMO :)

[MoreTBC]

What if you bought into a dummy turnament for €4 and you auto win a ticket for a €4 MTT with no prizepool (or you could purchase the tickets in the bonus store or for cash). You just play for position and teh reg fee gets added to the league prise pool? :)

[emnv1]

I think it should be based on the total amount of players registered simply because the amount of registered community members who are seriously participating in the league won't  differ too much and there is quite a difference between winning a 50 and 150 players tournament.

[JeppeL]

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@MoreTBC wrote:

 

If you're varying the GTD and the buy-in then it's pretty close to being just like a MTT League promo run normally.

 

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Thought a lot about this statement last night and I think you're right, a more organic tournament might be the way to go, without guarantees at all and password protected. How would you feel about this schedule:

4/4: NLHE Turbo 9-handed - 19:00 UK - 20:00 CET

6/4: NLHE Turbo 9-handed - 19:00 UK - 20:00 CET

9/4: NLHE Turbo 9-handed - 19:00 UK - 20:00 CET

5 min blinds - 4000 chips - 30 mins late registration - 1 re-entry allowed during late registration.

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18/4: PLO 9-handed - 19:00 UK - 20:00 CET

20/4: PLO 9-handed - 19:00 UK - 20:00 CET

23/4: PLO 9-handed - 19:00 UK - 20:00 CET

9 min blinds - 3000 chip - 60 mins late registration - 1 re-entry allowed during late registration.

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11/4: NLHE 6-handed - 19:00 UK - 20:00 CET

13/4: NLHE 6-handed - 19:00 UK - 20:00 CET

16/4: NLHE 6-handed - 19:00 UK - 20:00 CET

9 min blinds - 3000 chip - 60 mins late registration - 1 re-entry allowed during late registration.

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25/4: NLHE 9-handed - 18:00 UK - 19:00 CET 

27/4: NLHE 9-handed - 18:00 UK - 19:00 CET 

30/4: NLHE 9-handed  - 18:00 UK - 19:00 CET 

9 min blinds - 4000 chips - 60 mins late registration - 1 re-entry allowed during late registration.

[MoreTBC]

I think it looks good :). Not sure if there is a need for rebuys, you're kinda giving anyone with a bigger bankroll a better chance at the top prizes and I think creating as level a playing field as possible is good. Wouldn't mind seeing a bounty variant thrown in for one week or even have it as a special for a whole month.

I think the main prizes should be for league finishes and not individual MTT finishes so no GTD is good IMO. The €1k sounds lovely but at €10 you're pricing out a lot of community players and inviting lots of non-community members in. I think it should be as accessible as possible. The money for winning any individual MTT shouldn't really be that important, it should be about consistency, like the butler league was.

Not sure if there is a way you can only see the password if you're logged in here but that would be great for trying to make it as community member oriented as possible and would allow for more password changes.

 

Edit: I also thing using a points system like the Bulter league would work fine.

[radge1]

Hi @JeppeL

I agree with @BillyR23 about using the Butler League scoring system and with @MoreTBC with respect to re-entry....doesn't really seem necessary, I like that it seems mostly 9 handed as opposed to mostly 6 handed in March. 😃  

[MoreTBC]

So what's the latest @JeppeL? :)

[JeppeL]

@MoreTBC We're live! https://www.unibetcommunity.com/t5/General-Poker/Unibet-Community-Poker-League-April/td-p/79791