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Livertool

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MU lost again. It seems they won't be on UCL places this year too. That's a sad news for the fans, because i'm 100% sure a league for big teams (similar the major sports in USA) will come within 10 years and this performance won't be enough for a free participations card.

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@psrquack wrote:

MU lost again. It seems they won't be on UCL places this year too. That's a sad news for the fans, because i'm 100% sure a league for big teams (similar the major sports in USA) will come within 10 years and this performance won't be enough for a free participations card.


 

Not gonna happen! They're making these threats since 1998, at least.

Man United being bad is good for me, it probably means that Jadon Sancho has one less destination to go to and stay in Dortmund for longer than 2020.

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We're gonna win on so many levels! We're gonna win, win, win. You're gonna get so tired of winning, you're gonna say: "Mr. President please, we don't wanna win anymore, it's too much!" And I'm gonna say: "I'm sorry, we're gonna keep winning because we're gonna make America great again!"
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@WuDu wrote:


Not gonna happen! They're making these threats since 1998, at least.

 


This is the key why gonna this happen.Don't forget the little steps forward. UEFA allowed not only the champions to UCL, then added more and more group stage places to big clubs(do you remember when german 3-4 played a qualifier for the group stage?), now they introduced EL2 to separate little clubs from the middle ones. More and more concrete plans appearing every year.

On the other hand the top clubs are getting stronger and stronger and the majority of viewers come from outside of Europe. UEFA trying to add more UCL gamedays to the schedule and the major target is Saturday. Barcelona refused that this year, but the tendency shows no bright future for national championships.

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First thing to get better is sack that OG. After positive burst when stepped in, there has been no sign that their play is getting better in anyway. I am surprised that they have given him this long but i guess there is problem who they are going replace him with. Jose back? 🤣🤣🤣

I beg to differ with that big team league. Unlike in states, we are talking about different countries in Europe and each have their own history, traditions and rivals.

Plus it is very hard to create some new league and make people get interested of it. Couple good examples in ice hockey with KHL and CL. Not too many are interested and leagues go on with company/sponsored money rather paying customers.

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@Livertool wrote:

First thing to get better is sack that OG. After positive burst when stepped in, there has been no sign that their play is getting better in anyway. I am surprised that they have given him this long but i guess there is problem who they are going replace him with. Jose back? 🤣🤣🤣

I beg to differ with that big team league. Unlike in states, we are talking about different countries in Europe and each have their own history, traditions and rivals.

Plus it is very hard to create some new league and make people get interested of it. Couple good examples in ice hockey with KHL and CL. Not too many are interested and leagues go on with company/sponsored money rather paying customers.


I hope Jose won't back. I would like to see Cantona on the bench.🤣

To the league: they don't need to create a new one, they already have it, the UCL. If they will guarantee 30 from 32 places to the strongest teams without relegation in the first 5 years and could make a deal for a second matchday on Saturda/Sunday then nobody could stop the rise of the MLS Europe.

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@psrquack wrote:


@WuDu wrote:


Not gonna happen! They're making these threats since 1998, at least.

 


This is the key why gonna this happen.Don't forget the little steps forward. UEFA allowed not only the champions to UCL, then added more and more group stage places to big clubs(do you remember when german 3-4 played a qualifier for the group stage?), now they introduced EL2 to separate little clubs from the middle ones. More and more concrete plans appearing every year.

On the other hand the top clubs are getting stronger and stronger and the majority of viewers come from outside of Europe. UEFA trying to add more UCL gamedays to the schedule and the major target is Saturday. Barcelona refused that this year, but the tendency shows no bright future for national championships.


 

But not the majority of money and that's what it's all about. I'd say 10 M Germans watching are more important than 100 M Chinese or 200 M Indians. Like I said, the clubs are threatening for over 20 years, it's just a political tool to gain more influence with UEFA (more money, more spots for the big leagues...). Maybe there will be some changes to the UCL and the EL, sure, but we're not going to see an NBA style "Superleague" where only the elites play each other that competes with the national leagues.

  • Like 1
We're gonna win on so many levels! We're gonna win, win, win. You're gonna get so tired of winning, you're gonna say: "Mr. President please, we don't wanna win anymore, it's too much!" And I'm gonna say: "I'm sorry, we're gonna keep winning because we're gonna make America great again!"
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@WuDu wrote:


I'd say 10 M Germans watching are more important than 100 M Chinese or 200 M Indians. Like I said, the clubs are threatening for over 20 years, it's just a political tool to gain more influence with UEFA (more money, more spots for the big leagues...). Maybe there will be some changes to the UCL and the EL, sure, but we're not going to see an NBA style "Superleague" where only the elites play each other that competes with the national leagues.

Why? The owner comes from Arabic states/China etc. The main sponsor too. The match starts at 12.00 CET or so to please asian viewers (like El Classico, Seria A games last years). They sign asian players to increase the merchandise in Asia. They make presaisonal tours in Asia/USA. Banners in the PL games advertising things in arabic language.

"The proposals were presented by European football's governing body UEFA in May although details had leaked earlier.

The reforms include the introduction of weekend fixtures, four groups of eight, and a tiered system with relegation and promotion that would see the top six teams in each group automatically qualify for the following year's competition."

https://www.hindustantimes.com/football/europe-s-clubs-divided-over-champions-league-reform/story-5mc0PTcXJT7ktxMoxtzEyM.html

Currently clubs are against it, but I'm sure money will find his way to break the resistance.

 

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@WuDu wrote:


@psrquack wrote:


On the other hand the top clubs are getting stronger and stronger and the majority of viewers come from outside of Europe. UEFA trying to add more UCL gamedays to the schedule and the major target is Saturday. Barcelona refused that this year, but the tendency shows no bright future for national championships.


But not the majority of money and that's what it's all about. I'd say 10 M Germans watching are more important than 100 M Chinese or 200 M Indians...

Slikovni rezultat za karl heinz rummenigge gif

My german is bad,but I think he disagrees. :Wink:

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@psrquack wrote:


@WuDu wrote:


I'd say 10 M Germans watching are more important than 100 M Chinese or 200 M Indians. Like I said, the clubs are threatening for over 20 years, it's just a political tool to gain more influence with UEFA (more money, more spots for the big leagues...). Maybe there will be some changes to the UCL and the EL, sure, but we're not going to see an NBA style "Superleague" where only the elites play each other that competes with the national leagues.

Why? The owner comes from Arabic states/China etc. The main sponsor too. The match starts at 12.00 CET or so to please asian viewers (like El Classico, Seria A games last years). They sign asian players to increase the merchandise in Asia. They make presaisonal tours in Asia/USA. Banners in the PL games advertising things in arabic language.

"The proposals were presented by European football's governing body UEFA in May although details had leaked earlier.

The reforms include the introduction of weekend fixtures, four groups of eight, and a tiered system with relegation and promotion that would see the top six teams in each group automatically qualify for the following year's competition."

https://www.hindustantimes.com/football/europe-s-clubs-divided-over-champions-league-reform/story-5mc0PTcXJT7ktxMoxtzEyM.html

Currently clubs are against it, but I'm sure money will find his way to break the resistance.


 

Keyword: "Proposal".

There's a difference between opening up the market and trying to get customers in different areas of the world and thinking that the Chinese/Indians/Indonesians are now taking over the competition!

Asian players such as? Lei Wu for Espanyol comes to my mind but he's getting playing time.

@Livertoolhas been correct, building an international league is tough. The KHL is basically the Soviet Union 2.0 League! :Laugh: The Adria League connects former Yugoslavian basketball teams. The Austrian Hockey League has a team from Slovenia and South Tyrol. These teams are all geographically and historically connected.

What a lot of guys forget, even in a Superleague, there will be losers. Good luck marketing Man Utd as some kind of a premium brand after consecutive years with 20 losses...

@XY 

Sorry bro, I'm not a lip reader....:Laugh: However everything that comes out of Rummenigge's mouth has to be taken with a grain of salt. A huge grain!

 

We're gonna win on so many levels! We're gonna win, win, win. You're gonna get so tired of winning, you're gonna say: "Mr. President please, we don't wanna win anymore, it's too much!" And I'm gonna say: "I'm sorry, we're gonna keep winning because we're gonna make America great again!"
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@WuDu wrote:



 

Keyword: "Proposal".

There's a difference between opening up the market and trying to get customers in different areas of the world and thinking that the Chinese/Indians/Indonesians are now taking over the competition!

Asian players such as? Lei Wu for Espanyol comes to my mind but he's getting playing time.

@Livertoolhas been correct, building an international league is tough. The KHL is basically the Soviet Union 2.0 League! :laugh: The Adria League connects former Yugoslavian basketball teams. The Austrian Hockey League has a team from Slovenia and South Tyrol. These teams are all geographically and historically connected.

What a lot of guys forget, even in a Superleague, there will be losers. Good luck marketing Man Utd as some kind of a premium brand after consecutive years with 20 losses...

 

 


Yes, currently it is a proposal, but could this proposal imagine 10 years ago? Semi closed league and weekend rounds? I don't think so.

Sorry for delivering the bad news, they already took over it.

Asian players in PL history:  https://football-tribe.com/asia/2019/08/22/poll-who-is-the-best-asian-player-in-premier-league-history/2/

Arabic players: https://www.marca.com/en/football/spanish-football/2018/01/22/5a660691e2704e8f248b45af.html

"On Sunday afternoon, several First and Second Division clubs announced the surprise loan of players from Saudi Arabia following an agreement between LaLiga, the General Sports Authority of Saudi Arabia and the Saudi Arabian Football Federation ."

Mostly of them was bought for financial/merchandise reasons.

KHL: that's correct, if you count Jokerit(FIN) and KunLun(Beijing) to former Soviet Union too.

 EBEL: also  has hungarian team.

Btw, I'm sure there will be a super league within 10 years.

 

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@WuDu wrote:


@XY 

Sorry bro, I'm not a lip reader....:laugh: However everything that comes out of Rummenigge's mouth has to be taken with a grain of salt. A huge grain!


He expressed,few times,dissatisfaction with TV rights in Germany and how he is jealous on Premier league on that matter.

Like psrquack said,Asia and America became,almost,main income for top clubs...those are,sadly,facts.

But hey,german clubs goes to Turkey for their pre-season,so I guess there is something for them... 🤣

 

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@XY wrote:


@WuDu wrote:


@XY 

Sorry bro, I'm not a lip reader....:laugh: However everything that comes out of Rummenigge's mouth has to be taken with a grain of salt. A huge grain!


He expressed,few times,dissatisfaction with TV rights in Germany and how he is jealous on Premier league on that matter.

Like psrquack said,Asia and America became,almost,main income for top clubs...those are,sadly,facts.

But hey,german clubs goes to Turkey for their pre-season,so I guess there is something for them... 🤣

 


 

You mean the same Rummenigge/Bayern that was very, very happy with the TV deal in the early 2000s, when they were paid extra under the table by the broadcaster? 🤣

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirch-Aff%C3%A4re

Of course, the clubs always want more money. But like I said, moving out of the leagues is too much of a risk for the respective clubs. What if ManCity leaves the PL for a SuperLeague and this new SuperLeague falters? Not enough fan support, not enough pay per view buys, another financial crisis, etc... Then you can basically close the club as well because good luck begging the Premier League to take you back...  :laugh:

@psrquack 

You're not trying to tell me that 2012 Kagawa was a marketing signing, don't you? Some Serie A club signing Gaddafi's son, is more like it...That Saudi-Arabia deal seems more like the Saudis paid for their players to train on a pro level ahead of the World Cup. That has nothing to do with marketing your league.

I said "Soviet Union 2.0"- League! Finland and Russia have a long history together and are located next to each other! Similar for the Beijing team, which is not even the team located farthest to the east in the KHL. Austria-Hungary doesn't need any mention, I assume!

 

We're gonna win on so many levels! We're gonna win, win, win. You're gonna get so tired of winning, you're gonna say: "Mr. President please, we don't wanna win anymore, it's too much!" And I'm gonna say: "I'm sorry, we're gonna keep winning because we're gonna make America great again!"
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@WuDu: again, you don't look after the tendencies. Could you imagine that any of foreign state will give money to german clubs and those clubs should sign players who aren't good enough for Bundesliga in the '90s? That happened in Spain. Those clubs weren't able to finance the run against the giants and the result is weeker squads and many new viewers/possible merchandise in Asia. Do you think is this good? I don't think so, because who gives the money will dictate the terms and conditions later.

Remember how many fans are against the yearly increase of ticket prices in England. They already know the majority of the tickets are "reserved" for match tourists from across the world. I don't find it cool that travel agencies offer journeys to the most interesting games.

German clubs are lucky, because asian investors can't buy a club in the Bundesliga, but those guys are everywhere. Check who is the owner of  Slavia Praha.

KHL: sorry but having history doesn't mean they were part of Soviet Union. I don't remember if Helsinki or Beijing (or previously Bratislava) was part of it. When you check KHL plans you can see they will organize games is Switzerland and also making discussions with western european teams to join into the league.

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@psrquack wrote:

 

KHL: sorry but having history doesn't mean they were part of Soviet Union. I don't remember if Helsinki or Beijing (or previously Bratislava) was part of it. When you check KHL plans you can see they will organize games is Switzerland and also making discussions with western european teams to join into the league.


They can plan alright but what team would be interested joining KHL when there are very clear examples that teams just lose money in there. Like Jokerit for example, they lose millions every year. They would be bankrupt if russian investors wouldn't finance them. And when that money flow stops, it is game over.

There are still many variables in any shape of superleagues. I think all national associations would have to accept it too, it is not something uefa can just decide. And how interested they would be if league would be closed and you couldn't play your way to cl anymore. That takes away lot of interest in national league too. 

So i don't think any major thing will happen in near future. With current tv and prise money, big teams are doing just fine so i don't see them gamble that all away by jumping to great unknown.

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@psrquack 

I think you haven't thought it all through! The SuperLeague has been talked about since 1998, at least. I remember, because I wrote a pro-con discussion about it for my German course back in school. :laugh: Back then, I was as naive as you are right now and thought: "Hey, that's a great idea, only great games, this will surely be a reality soon..."

Now, with added experience and unmatched wisdom, it's easy to see that this is just a huge charade pushed by the big clubs to squeeze the national leagues, the smaller clubs and the UEFA.

A SuperLeague means that these elite clubs leave their national leagues, stop playing in the UCL and govern themselves. That also means, that the SuperLeague has to play in more money for these clubs like national competition and UCL combined. Where is that money coming from? Mostly from Asia where 100s of millions just escaped poverty? Where are the star players coming from? The national leagues will be doing everything in their power to make the move to the SuperLeague as difficult as possible. What about the losing teams in the SuperLeague? The Cleveland Browns can rely on the NFL draft, Free Agency and the salary cap year after year, what is ManUtd or Tottenham going to do after finishing at the bottom?

A SuperLeague is not going to be implemented, because it would mean that everyone involved (big clubs, small clubs, national leagues, UEFA) would be losing in the end. Everyone knows it, thus they're only talking about it for 20+ years. I took a course of game theory at university, this is the typical chicken game scenario.

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We're gonna win on so many levels! We're gonna win, win, win. You're gonna get so tired of winning, you're gonna say: "Mr. President please, we don't wanna win anymore, it's too much!" And I'm gonna say: "I'm sorry, we're gonna keep winning because we're gonna make America great again!"
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@WuDu wrote:

@psrquack 

I think you haven't thought it all through! 


With all my respect I think the same about your post. Superleage won't happen like rain falling down the sky. First setep will be the matchday on the weekends. Then UEFA will ease the financial fair play rules what will occur UCL teams will be able to duplicate their squads. That will occur the UCL teams will be able to play on Saturday and on Sunday too. National federations won't give up the weekend rounds, but those teams will play their weaker players in the national championships and the most powerful team in the UCL. Why? Because playing in the UCL will guarantee the places for the next season. As you already read on proposal the first 6 teams from the 8 member's group will be qualify for the next year. In the first years there will be some 4-6 places from the 32 for teams from the national championships, but the qualifying method will be long and only for the champions available. UEFA will give a helping hand to all mayor teams who are already in the super group not to relegate from them, but in some case it will obviously happen. After taking the 1-4 guaranteed UCL playes from the national championships away they will playing a role as farm teams in the USA. The best players will play in the UCL, the leagues can't make  so fruitable contracts like previously and football fans, well, if they could chose watching Juve B on Saturday or Juve A on Sunday I bet mostly of them will chose the second option.

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@psrquack wrote:


Football fans, well, if they could chose watching Juve B on Saturday or Juve A on Sunday I bet mostly of them will chose the second option.

 

 

giphy

I've been a huge NFL fan in the past, I stopped watching after the league and its media (in the US and Germany) started to push more and more left-wing nonsense. Nowadays I maybe watch the Superbowl and I never looked back. Imagine the reaction of the majority of the fan base if the national competitions gets sh*t on like that!

We're gonna win on so many levels! We're gonna win, win, win. You're gonna get so tired of winning, you're gonna say: "Mr. President please, we don't wanna win anymore, it's too much!" And I'm gonna say: "I'm sorry, we're gonna keep winning because we're gonna make America great again!"
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@WuDu wrote:


Imagine the reaction of the majority of the fan base if the national competitions gets sh*t on like that!

It depends on what falls into habit. For you and me national leagues have the priority, but for a kid who could watch his "heroes" mostly in JuveA I doubt.

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@psrquack wrote:


@WuDu wrote:


Imagine the reaction of the majority of the fan base if the national competitions gets sh*t on like that!

It depends on what falls into habit. For you and me national leagues have the priority, but for a kid who could watch his "heroes" mostly in JuveA I doubt.


 

Again, you're putting too much trust in "leaked" "proposals". This is all just politics. The UCL will never go in direct competition to the national leagues, playing at the same time. That would lead to massive protests and boycotts. Could they try to find more dates and get creative with the schedule? Absolutely. However you have to understand that if you increase the quantity, the quality will go down. 20 years ago, the UCL had two consecutive group phases to maximize the exposure of the great teams. There were 12 group games before the playoffs. That was so successful that this format was abolished within 1 or 2 years, because the games were boring and meaningless. You'll get the same with groups of 8.

 

We're gonna win on so many levels! We're gonna win, win, win. You're gonna get so tired of winning, you're gonna say: "Mr. President please, we don't wanna win anymore, it's too much!" And I'm gonna say: "I'm sorry, we're gonna keep winning because we're gonna make America great again!"
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@WuDu wrote:


@psrquack wrote:


@WuDu wrote:


Imagine the reaction of the majority of the fan base if the national competitions gets sh*t on like that!

It depends on what falls into habit. For you and me national leagues have the priority, but for a kid who could watch his "heroes" mostly in JuveA I doubt.


 

Again, you're putting too much trust in "leaked" "proposals". This is all just politics. .

 


And you are too naive and can't imagine what can happen. Those major clubs are losing their identity and currently they are pure joint-stock companies. Remember when Real allowed to sell their jersey without a cross in arabic states. It's nothing but profit. It will happen.

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@psrquack wrote:



And you are too naive and can't imagine what can happen. Those major clubs are losing their identity and currently they are pure joint-stock companies. Remember when Real allowed to sell their jersey without a cross in arabic states. It's nothing but profit. It will happen.


 

Again, you're mixing things up! However you're right about teams and whole leagues in general selling out for cash. Look at what's happening to the "woke" NBA and China right now! 🤣 In the US they embrace every leftist cause there is and defend it with free speech, however when it comes to China/Hong Kong, they self-censor themselves. :laugh:

This also shows why it's important for clubs to not forget about your roots. If teams like ManUtd or Liverpool or Arsenal forget about their domestic base, what do they have left? Players come and go, in the end, they'd  be nothing but a nice logo and a stadium. Stadia lose value over time and logos can be replaced, so in order to survive and to make profit in the future, clubs have to at least pretend to care about their supporters at home.

The clubs know that, that's why over the last 20+ years we've not seen a Super League and the UCL only changed minor aspects. Watching sports has a lot to do with emotions. Emotions make the product Premier League, Bundesliga, LaLiga and the respective clubs unique. If you take these emotions out, what do you have left? Competitive Harlem Globetrotters? The club bosses know that very well (BVB's Watzke stated a year ago that the club will never leave the Bundesliga, even Bayern distanced themselves from a SuperLeague in public). These proposals are all bluffs...

 

 

We're gonna win on so many levels! We're gonna win, win, win. You're gonna get so tired of winning, you're gonna say: "Mr. President please, we don't wanna win anymore, it's too much!" And I'm gonna say: "I'm sorry, we're gonna keep winning because we're gonna make America great again!"
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@WuDu wrote:



 

 

This also shows why it's important for clubs to not forget about your roots. If teams like ManUtd or Liverpool or Arsenal forget about their domestic base, what do they have left? Players come and go, in the end, they'd  be nothing but a nice logo and a stadium. Stadia lose value over time and logos can be replaced, so in order to survive and to make profit in the future, clubs have to at least pretend to care about their supporters at home.

 

 

 


"On Saturday, United defeated Huddersfield in a comfortable 2-0 win. After the game, Jose Mourinho stated that he thought the atmosphere was “a bit quiet.”...

Now, I’m not sure if Fratton Park should be used as the barometer of a raucous atmosphere, but Mourinho is right. Old Trafford is quiet......

Ticket prices rising has meant that a different type of fan is attending. But it’s not that the richer the fan, the quieter and more civilised they are. No, in my opinion, the reason that it’s getting quieter is that fans are there for a different reason than they used to be. In fact, they’re not fans at all. They’re customers.

Why do these customers attend games? Because of the deep, emotional connection that they have with the football club? Nope. It’s because they’ve seen them on TV, watched the vines or played as them on Football Manager. They want to be entertained.....

Sadly, this seems to be a losing battle. The board don’t care what type of customer enters, as long as they pay. No matter how high the prices are, a team with United’s global reach will be able to find 70,000 people to fill those seats."

https://www.manunited.uk/2018/02/08/pulpit-old-trafford-quiet/

United also did it. Ameican owner, asian tours, players from all around the world, silent fans and wealthy contracts. The future is here. I visited their homepage and if you want to change the language you can't chose german, but there are many asian/arabic options. That clearly shows what fan basis is important for the club.

 

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@psrquack wrote:


United also did it. Ameican owner, asian tours, players from all around the world, silent fans and wealthy contracts. The future is here. I visited their homepage and if you want to change the language you can't chose german, but there are many asian/arabic options. That clearly shows what fan basis is important for the club.


 

There's nothing wrong with Asian/American tours in the preseason. But look at the backlash La Liga received when they wanted to stage 1 (!!!!!) regular season match in the USA. Of course, the big clubs are trying to push and push, however certain lines cannot be crossed. "Customers" visit the stadium due to the unique experience. I doubt that AS Monaco has many away visitors...🤣 This experience is directly connected to the atmosphere and the emotions around the club! Once that is gone, the clubs have no unique selling point anymore and are replacable. Heck, what stops the rich Chinese kids to attend esports competitions instead of generic football games in Europe, if there's nothing special about the clubs anymore?

 

We're gonna win on so many levels! We're gonna win, win, win. You're gonna get so tired of winning, you're gonna say: "Mr. President please, we don't wanna win anymore, it's too much!" And I'm gonna say: "I'm sorry, we're gonna keep winning because we're gonna make America great again!"
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