02/08/2021 - Supermoon bounty issues / Compensation

[Andy-Relax]

Hi Everyone,

As some of you may be aware, we had to cancel day 2 of the Supermoon last night due to the bounty values not showing on the tables and in the lobby. There were some server issues on Monday morning and it appears this may have had a knock on effect regarding displaying the bounties. 

9 of the 11 players that started day 2 were still in when we cancelled the tournament after 27 minutes of play and they were refunded according to our cancellation policy: -

• The remaining players will be refunded their fee including re-buy and add-on fees
• If players are on final table the prize pool will be redistributed according to the ICM (Independent Chip Model) chop, if they are in the money
• If cancelled tournament is a bounty tournament then player is given his own bounty value.

The decision was made that this was unfair on the eliminated players and players that lost big stacks so this morning we went back and looked at what the refund distribution would have been had we cancelled the tournament before play started on day 2 with 11 players. As they would not have been on the final table with 11 players the following policy would have been used:- 

The tournament has started and players are “in the money” (have reached the prizes):

• The remaining players will be refunded their fee including re-buy and add-on fees
• If players are not on the final table each player will receive the lowest remaining prize and the rest of the pot is distributed in proportion to their chip count
• If cancelled tournament is a bounty tournament then player is given his own bounty value.

The 5 players negatively affected by the cancellation not being actioned before the start of day 2 have received the compensation above. The remaining players that benefited from the ICM chop will keep the original refund they received and no funds will be removed from their accounts.

I'd like to apologise to the players for the inconvenience caused by the issues last night. We were aware before play started that the bounties were not showing but anticipated they would appear when the tournament resumed. As it was in the evening it took a little time to get a final decision made on what to do with the tournament which lead to players playing longer than they should have.

 

[Andy-Relax]

The above payouts are incorrect and will be updated shortly.

[Kekejorma]

Are those day1 stacks correct? I tought that i had 179,000chips after day1.

[ladyluckpls]

yeah the stacks are correct, i have same numbers on the screenshot i took after day1, but icm numbers look a bit off and no bounty amount was paid today to me..

https://www.icmpoker.com/icmcalculator/#OSnn

waiting for the update @Andy-Unibet:-)

 

Edited August 3, 2021 by ladyluckpls

[Kekejorma]

Can u add your screenshot after day1? Me too waiting bounty ammount

[Andy-Relax]

When the first calculations were done I used the total payouts, which included day one bounty payouts, for the totals for Elimination/ICM payout. This was obviously incorrect and meant it looked like some players did not need a refund when they actually did. After checking with Relax the bounties had reset on Day 2 to so everyone was paid out their own bounty on cancellation but it was a min bounty (with the exception of players that won one early on day 2) so the ICM payouts in the list below will be slightly higher than running it through a calculator direct.

The system we use to process these kind of refunds is having a little maintenance done so the "2nd Refund given" column will be paid out later this afternoon. "1st refund given" values have already been credited.

I'll update the thread again when the second refunds are processed.

[Kekejorma]

Im sure that i played day1 last pot against "Flogge". I dont remember positions, but he opens, i call and other players fold. Flop 432r, he bets, i call. Turn 4, he bets, i call. River 9 and he bets and i go all-in and he fold. And i tought that i took that ss after that pot.. 

[Pionrj]

@KekejormaCheck that hand from history and you'll see how much chips you left with after day 1.

[Kekejorma]

Sorry only few hours sleep last few days and i need to operate with My Phone so it is bit difficult 😄 But i tought that i found that hand. Tell me if im wrong

Edited August 3, 2021 by Kekejorma

[Kekejorma]

Yes it is day1 last hand

[ladyluckpls]

hmm im the tenth player, but I still don't understand these adapted numbers lol

my questions:

1) is the amount under "total 11 way refund" the icm amount I should receive based on my stack? so 1617 total without accounting my own bounty?

2) am i correct saying that for my situation, the bounty amount still isn't taken into consideration?

3) when u say a player gets his bounty back, shouldn't be the face value that was on the table? if so, my number is wrong..

https://ibb.co/59f8jY0 

 

@Kekejormathe end of day1 stats

https://ibb.co/j88BQm2

 

 

[Kekejorma]

Thx ladyluck. But our table played that hand i post... So wtf 🤔 

[Kekejorma]

Ladyluck your ss was taken before our table last hand was played/ended. Your ss running time is 4h49m and My is 4h51m. The hand ended middle of the break so i think that was the reason why it hasnt been counted? 

[Andy-Relax]

Hi Everyone,

A third (and hopefully) final set of number are below. The previous stacks were taken from ladyluckpls screenshot so they were missing the final hand on one of the tables so these have been updated. I also used the bounty values from the screenshot rather than the hand histories which meant bounties won rather than bounty on head were previously shown. These have also been updated in the table below. 

To clarify, the "Total 11 way Refund" is [Bounty end of day 1] + [Fee refund](€15/€30 depending on entries) + [Lowest Payout Refund] + [Chip Chop Payout]. As the tournament wasn't on the FT at the start of Day 2, the prize pool (after the lowest payout for everyone was deducted) was chopped based on chip count, not ICM as per cancellation policy.

The "ICM payout" is the automated payout on cancellation that included the fees, min bounties mentioned above and FT ICM payout.

Blue Fill = End of Day 1 numbers

Orange Fill = Total Refund Due

Pink Fill = Refunds/cashes already paid out

Green Fill = Final refunds to be credited

I'll do the second refunds in about an hour, which should give everyone enough time to find any other mistakes I've made 🙂

[ladyluckpls]

nice, i bet u won't forget this supermoon edition Andy 🙂

The bounties looks correct now, but pls allow me to nag a bit more for 10th and 11th player as it makes quite the difference, yesterday it was confirmed on twitch the calcalution would be done on ICM with 11 and now it was done on chip count chop..🤔

https://ibb.co/BZF8FBK

[Andy-Relax]

I'm Unibetpoker on Twitch and it was a typo. I meant chip chop. It's the official cancellation policy and how this will be dealt with. I apologise for any confusion regarding that.

[Andy-Relax]

Payouts have now been made.

[ladyluckpls]

thank you! 

[Ashenfaced]

1 hour ago, Andy-Unibet said:

I'm Unibetpoker on Twitch and it was a typo. I meant chip chop. It's the official cancellation policy and how this will be dealt with. I apologise for any confusion regarding that.

Hi guys, just some general questions

 

Why is there no process in place for identifying possible mistakes/errors in the event the server restarts? 

Given the Day 2 Supermoon table is able to be opened hours beforehand, how was the starting bounty reset issue not spotted? 

Why, given the tournament had already materially changed due to play (2 KOs and FT reached) could it not be paused at FT and restarted with correct, FT KOs? Surely that is just a matter of going through the hand history, and working out who won which bounty, then adding that to the own-head bounty that you know of?

What is the process for deciding on what the refunds are? 

Why would it not be sorted out and finalized before any money was refunded or posts were made?

Why is chip chop used after significant and material play, chip chop materially hurts big stacks who can win bounties and also is archaic compared to ICM - Could there not have been a KO-altered ICM model for payouts? And why was this not communicated earlier, rather it took multiple calculations and posts, including a calculation based on a player screenshot rather than unibets own data?  

[Stubbe-Unibet]

33 minutes ago, Ashenfaced said:

Why is there no process in place for identifying possible mistakes/errors in the event the server restarts? 

Given the Day 2 Supermoon table is able to be opened hours beforehand, how was the starting bounty reset issue not spotted? 

Of course agree this should have been spotted, but it wasn't. Can only apologize for this.

34 minutes ago, Ashenfaced said:

Why, given the tournament had already materially changed due to play (2 KOs and FT reached) could it not be paused at FT and restarted with correct, FT KOs? Surely that is just a matter of going through the hand history, and working out who won which bounty, then adding that to the own-head bounty that you know of?

Not technically an option. We can't create custom tournaments with custom starting stacks.

34 minutes ago, Ashenfaced said:

What is the process for deciding on what the refunds are? 

Not sure what you mean with process, but it's generally all handled automatically when tournament is cancelled, as per policy (see poker T&C). If something like this happens, it has to be corrected manually of course.

36 minutes ago, Ashenfaced said:

Why would it not be sorted out and finalized before any money was refunded or posts were made?

Why is chip chop used after significant and material play, chip chop materially hurts big stacks who can win bounties and also is archaic compared to ICM - Could there not have been a KO-altered ICM model for payouts? And why was this not communicated earlier, rather it took multiple calculations and posts, including a calculation based on a player screenshot rather than unibets own data?  

I assume Andy wanted to communicate in a timely fashion, and he thought the numbers were correct. Andy shared the relevant part from the cancellation policy in multiple threads right when it got cancelled.

No reason to bother with a manual query getting data at a specific time of the tournament (not as easy as it perhaps sounds), if we have a screenshot. Not sure you realize how impatient some players are, even if they've already been assured that it's being worked on and will be solved asap 🙂

[Andy-Relax]

14 hours ago, Ashenfaced said:

Hi guys, just some general questions

 

Why is there no process in place for identifying possible mistakes/errors in the event the server restarts? 

Given the Day 2 Supermoon table is able to be opened hours beforehand, how was the starting bounty reset issue not spotted? 

Why, given the tournament had already materially changed due to play (2 KOs and FT reached) could it not be paused at FT and restarted with correct, FT KOs? Surely that is just a matter of going through the hand history, and working out who won which bounty, then adding that to the own-head bounty that you know of?

What is the process for deciding on what the refunds are? 

Why would it not be sorted out and finalized before any money was refunded or posts were made?

Why is chip chop used after significant and material play, chip chop materially hurts big stacks who can win bounties and also is archaic compared to ICM - Could there not have been a KO-altered ICM model for payouts? And why was this not communicated earlier, rather it took multiple calculations and posts, including a calculation based on a player screenshot rather than unibets own data?  

I'll hold my hands up and say yesterday was a bit of a mess. I wanted to get players refunded as quickly as possibly and I didn't do all the due diligence so that only one set of numbers and one credit was required. It was sloppy and I'm not proud of it. I was just focused on getting the customers affected sorted ASAP

The process for deciding how the refunds would be done was decided before my initial post was made, I just got the numbers we were going to use wrong. It was always going to be a chip chop after we decided to roll back to 11 players because that's what the cancellation policy says. 

Any play on day 2 didn't really matter for the players involved as the total refunds were ultimately issued based on stacks and bounties before play started on day 2 so players either received exactly what they should had we cancelled before play started or they actually benefited from the play happening and got more than they should have. Even if we had cancelled prior to play resuming the bounties on all the players had reset back to €117.25 so further manual work would have been required anyway to make up the difference.

Thankfully server issues and cancellations are few and far between but lessons have been learned and if we ever need to do this again it'll be handled better.

[ladyluckpls]

Errare humanum est Andy🙂

These things happen, thankfully very rarely on Unibet and in the end, the issue was well-managed and u had our interests at heart so u are forgiven 🙂 

It's true some calculation errors were made but there was open communication and all in all, they got quickly corrected ( a matter of a few hours), so thank you Andy, Ian on twitch and the Unibet team who helped sort this thing out!

 For future issues, I really feel there has to be some kind of direct communication done with the impacted players other than twitch or this forum.

If an email had be sent to me and other affected players, it would have taken away a lot of confusion so maybe that's something that can be looked upon within the poker team.