Unethical Play

[Christian8898]

Hi,

I would like to bring to your attention a recurring problem mainly in the 100's HexaPro games, but also in the 50's. I've been playing these games regularly for the last 6 months, close to 20k games, and on a constant basis there are several players that only play at the same time, never/rarely play on their own, which clearly indicates the presence of team game. As HexaPro games are 3 handed, playing together against any other 3rd player results in unethical play, it's totally unfair for the rest of the players. I firmly believe that Unibet should take action against this kind of behaviour, and the affected players should be compensated. There are clear game patterns, such as playing less aggressively against each other,  several instances of chip dumping( against me they would never have played in a similar way), certain timing when both players are involved in a hand.

Please look into: Skikru,wontplaymehu,fuzzyrainbow,happymen, bluewald,focus12,mishavskiy67, vorjk4jtf, Khaizen,Lender2,roarsweety.

Thank you

 @Stubbe-Unibet @Andy-Unibet @ReCorpH 

The main lines of your T&C on Unethical Play:

Unethical Play
11. Poker is an individual (not a team) game. Any action or chat intended to help another
player is unethical and is prohibited.

12. Unethical play, such as soft-play (playing less aggressively against a partner) and chip
dumping (intentionally losing chips to a partner), may result in penalties, including
seizure of funds from the offender's account and/or termination of the account.

[FreedoM]

@Stubbe-Unibet @Andy-Unibet @Jami-Unibet

[Groggy]

As described it sounds like it could be. Seems like an odd thing to collude in though, I don't see how the profit margins are there. Rake on one hexapro is just under 7%, so nearly 14% extra for 2 people. If my math is right they need the third player to only have around 20% itm to be in profit, (excluding rakeback) which seems ambitious.

[Andy-Relax]

Hi @Christian9999,

All of the aliases above (there are multiple aliases from the same accounts) are from high volume regulars. I already have negative fraud reports for more than half of the accounts based on previous reports and the high buy-in SNG/Hexapros are always closely monitored by the security team. I suspect these players all appear at the same time because that's the time when there are games available. 

[Christian8898]

Hi @Andy-Unibet,

Thank you for taking the time to look into this. I've been playing sit&go and spin&go/hexapro games for more than 6-7 years, over multiple networks, and this kind of behaviour has happened/ it's still happening in other places too, and I can firmly state that it is impossible for these players to start and finish their sessions without any agreement between them. There have been multiple times when games where available, with recreational players around, these players stopped  because a couple of other honest regulars (including myself) were playing at the same time and it wasn't profitable for them to continue. For the sake of the argument I'll give you an example, which I can prove with the hand history from my account: last week, during one evening, there were 11-25 players according to the Hexapro lobby. I opened a couple of tables, these 2 regs were playing plus one recreational. After 10-11 games, both of the regs went away, at the same time. I stopped as well, just to the test the story, if they would come back once I left. And 15-20 mins later, whilst I didn't register at any 100's games, there were 11-25 players again. I registered back, and guess what, these 2 regs were playing again at the same tables. With all due respect, you cannot tell me this kind of situation is just a coincidence, or they took an accidental brake together and came back at the same time, because I've been for too long in the game and I know it's not. Also, I won't argue the fact that this feature of how many players are at the Hexapro games is misleading, that is another story, which maybe at one certain point you guys would like to address.  

@Groggy Your math is quite good, but I would say that the rakeback deal is very important in this equation . These regs are very good, so together they make much more than 20% ITM when they play at the same tables. This kind of scheme works on 3 handed games quite good when 2 players share their profits and losses(to minimise the influence of variance, e.g. 1st reg wins 15k profit, 2nd one loses 5k; which results in a combined profit of 10k, 5k each), and a big profit margin comes from a good rakeback system, such as the one present at the moment on Unibet. At 6-7 million points, the rake back is close to 55-58%, according to the current challenge system,  close to 40k per 3 months. @Andy-Unibet I'm convinced these players make more than 7 mil points on a permanent basis, and withdraw quite often their profits, so the don't loss much in case they get their account locked.

Multiple sites took action against this kind of team play, and I know poker players that have been affected by unethical play, and have been compensated.

Edited June 15, 2021 by Christian8898

[Andy-Relax]

If 1 or more players are in conversation about playing their sessions at the same time to ensure there is sufficient volume to play, it does not make it unethical in my opinion. The rule regarding helping other players is in regards to during play, not before. As previously stated, most of the accounts have been checked and no concerns were raised about soft play or collusion. The entire unique player count for €50/€100 games in a 24 hour period is on average < 75 so you're going to see the same players over and over again and it's likely going to be a peak volume times. 

The fraud team believe that all the gameplay is fair and competitive so no action will be required on any of the accounts mentioned in your initial post.

[WuDu]

@Christian8898

Why don't you show/record a few hands where the players in question are colluding?

1 hour ago, Andy-Unibet said:

If 1 or more players are in conversation about playing their sessions at the same time to ensure there is sufficient volume to play, it does not make it unethical

Who doesn't know this situation? You're playing high variance games for 100 Euro a pop and you ask your toughest rivals to play at the same time against you. Totally reasonable...

[Andy-Relax]

6 minutes ago, WuDu said:

Who doesn't know this situation? You're playing high variance games for 100 Euro a pop and you ask your toughest rivals to play at the same time against you. Totally reasonable...

Not all the regs are winning players 🙂

[Christian8898]

@WuDu 

I hope I didn't misunderstand you, but I'm not asking anyone not to play at the same time as me. When 2 opponents team up against me or any other player at a 3handed table, that is when I have a problem. I don't have any issue with having competitors, I think you are aware that the majority of poker players that have been around for more than a couple of years thrive on competition, that's what keeps me going. I only enjoy this kind of environment  when the competition  doesn't abuse the system, with any kind of unfair approaches. 

@WuDuboth players are regulars, https://gyazo.com/4a501e2482d058f2b0f6262ee0d7966e

@Andy-UnibetSo Andy, Unibet's position on 2 players starting and finishing their sessions at the same time at 3 handed tables is a positive/neutral one?

Edited June 15, 2021 by Christian8898

[Livertool]

So Unibet needs to ban them for playing same time? If they start and stop 15 minutes apart, then it would be fine?

Not being cheeky, just asking how much you feel that operator should limit players.

Who knows, they even might be playing with joined funds to even out possible losses and hunting for big multipliers but if they are not chip dumping, cheating etc, what is there to do.

Your clip just seemed to me as bad bluff. Ain't no expert on cheating but would it even be sensible to dump chips to one player when they had pretty even stacks?

[WuDu]

59 minutes ago, Christian8898 said:

@WuDu 

I hope I didn't misunderstand you, but I'm not asking anyone not to play at the same time as me. When 2 opponents team up against me or any other player at a 3handed table, that is when I have a problem. I don't have any issue with having competitors, I think you are aware that the majority of poker players that have been around for more than a couple of years thrive on competition, that's what keeps me going. I only enjoy this kind of environment  when the competition  doesn't abuse the system, with any kind of unfair approaches. 

 

My point is that if you accuse other players of cheating/chipdumping/softplaying, you should back that up with clear and easy to follow records. That's what other players here did before. If there is unethical behaviour, as you mentioned, give a few examples of player A chipdumping to player B, for instance.

[Christian8898]

@WuDu

Ohh, I understand now what your point is. Clear and easy to follow records as hand history would be quite hard/impossible for me to post here, as you are aware there is no tracker allowed on Unibet, nor sharkscope tracking and there is no way I could keep an exact record whilst playing in the in-built hand history feature. I think that under these conditions, it is easy to cheat/softplay and hard for any other player to prove this without any extra help from Unibet. 

@Livertool I'm not saying they have to start and stop certain minutes apart,  but don't you find it disturbing  if they play together 95% of the time, at a 3 handed table? Would you be fine playing on your own any game/sport of 3 players against a team of 2 other guys?

And if they are playing with joined funds to hunt big multipliers, share profits(including rake back) you don't have any problem with that? Then in this case(as Unibet is fine with it) all of us should have their own team in 3 handed games with multipliers, or any other game that gives you the right incentive.

 

Edited June 15, 2021 by Christian8898

[Livertool]

32 minutes ago, Christian8898 said:

@Livertool I'm not saying they have to start and stop certain minutes apart,  but don't you find it disturbing  if they play together 95% of the time, at a 3 handed table? Would you be fine playing on your own any game/sport of 3 players against a team of 2 other guys?

And if they are playing with joined funds to hunt big multipliers, share profits(including rake back) you don't have any problem with that? Then in this case(as Unibet is fine with it) all of us should have their own team in 3 handed games with multipliers, or any other game that gives you the right incentive.

I don't know if it optimal situation but if they don't do any iffy things at table, does it matter if they are same duuds?

As far as i see only way Unibet could interfere such play would be limit how many times two accounts could play in same table but that would be bad both for business as for players when there ain't too many players and tables wouldn't open so often.

All i can suggest that you leave tables when there are players that you don't want to play against 🙂

[WuDu]

1 hour ago, Christian8898 said:

@WuDu

Ohh, I understand now what your point is. Clear and easy to follow records as hand history would be quite hard/impossible for me to post here, as you are aware there is no tracker allowed on Unibet, nor sharkscope tracking and there is no way I could keep an exact record whilst playing in the in-built hand history feature. I think that under these conditions, it is easy to cheat/softplay and hard for any other player to prove this without any extra help from Unibet. 

 

 

 

Go to Hexapro and then click on Hand History. You can then copy and paste the specific hands into Word and post them here.

[Christian8898]

@WuDu I hope you were just ironic, but thank you for your great help. I know how to open the hand history, but when playing 3/4/5 tables at the same time, how do you take a note of a fishy hand? Either you never played multiple HexaPros on Unibet, and don't understand that with 15-30 secs to act, it's impossible to write down in your notes a particular hand, or you just trying to prove that I don't have any real arguments. I'm not going to search now hand by hand the last 6 months history, I have better things to do with my time. I don't have the necessary means to combat this on my own, I understood very well Unibet's position, therefore I know the whole cause looks like a lost one.

[WuDu]

6 hours ago, Christian8898 said:

@WuDu I hope you were just ironic, but thank you for your great help. I know how to open the hand history, but when playing 3/4/5 tables at the same time, how do you take a note of a fishy hand? 

 

You either provide something concrete or the mods are going to dismiss your concerns. 

If you suspect fishy stuff during your session, writing down the time and your cards won't take long (K3s at 21:34) and will allow you to find the hand later once you're done. Which you can then export to word and provide here for evidence. That's what every other member, who caught cheaters before, did as well. 

[Pionrj]

This is again something ROFL-level from you @WuDu. Not that I have nothing to really add for the subject, but try playing out 4 Hexa tables at the same time. And try to win them all. Play 30 games in a row. Write down every 10th hand and what time it was. I'll pay half of your games afterwards you post them here. You might learn something. 

Edited June 16, 2021 by Pionrj

[AstonMartinii]

On 6/16/2021 at 2:55 AM, Christian8898 said:

@WuDu I hope you were just ironic, but thank you for your great help. I know how to open the hand history, but when playing 3/4/5 tables at the same time, how do you take a note of a fishy hand? Either you never played multiple HexaPros on Unibet, and don't understand that with 15-30 secs to act, it's impossible to write down in your notes a particular hand, or you just trying to prove that I don't have any real arguments. I'm not going to search now hand by hand the last 6 months history, I have better things to do with my time. I don't have the necessary means to combat this on my own, I understood very well Unibet's position, therefore I know the whole cause looks like a lost one.

-Programme one of your mouse buttons to take a snapshot of the screen. You can use your keyboard too, but it's not as fast. 

-Open the REPLAY window on the questionable hand/ table, take a snapshot and the pic should go to your desktop for quick retrieval. 

-Create a folder for Unibet files