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Ratholing email


jerry
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@Argevolen wrote:


@Stubbe-Unibet wrote:

 

Your conclusion is your own opinion, and I know for a fact, based on actual data (survey and poker transaction), that it's simply wrong :


You seem annoyed by the fact that I have an opinion. :Tongue:

That's what's most important! You have the information and understand how it will work.

Players don't have that information!

They are just concerned about the possibility of losing their account.

You could just clarify some points and announce the introduction of the technical side of this issue.

But it's not your style. It's much more interesting to pounce on players' posts and explain them what it is:

- stupid.

-wrong

- doesn't make sense

- you can not compare

and others....

Be gentle with people, not everyone is as smart as you are!:Smile:


You don't go to football field with ice hockey stick, don't you. It is up to players to know the rules, if you don't follow them ref gives yellow and then red card and you cry in shower :Waterfall:

About timebanking, anything unibet wants to do with disconnecting? I am 100% sure it just don't happen randomly when you see it pretty much every tourny and same players in that tourny. Don't know how they do it but it is even more annoying yhan timebanking

To bet or not to bet, that is the question.
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@Livertool, yes, disconnection time is on the backlog as well. Will need to get an update on it, in regards to timeline :)

If someone is seriously abusing it today, please do report it and Andy or I will have a look and issue a warning if we deem it necessary :)

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@Stubbe-Unibet wrote:


@Argevolen wrote:


@Stubbe-Unibet wrote:

Use of timebank isn't unethical, unless we'd have unlimited timebank, which we don't. Stalling is part of the game, and the timebank is configured in such a way that there's a balance. However, if you were to use max time in every single hand across thousands of hands and tournaments (for no reason other than to try and piss off the other players), we'd probably take action as well and send you a warning. The two things just can't be compared; primarily because there're already measures in place against one and not the other :)

I wrote about the excessive use of timebanking on the tournament bubble. Ask your colleagues what it is and why players do it.

You can also ask their opinion on the ethics of these actions.

That we shouldn't enforce one rule, because you deem other aspects equally important or annoying, that's just silly, especially when the comparison doesn't make any sense. 

The comparison really makes no sense because you are not comparing what I wrote, but what you want to compare!

If you rathole to an extreme extent, you're a real annoyance to the other players. This is what's key and why we take action. To call any preventive measures unethical, well, I think that speaks for itself really :)

It's not what you do that matters, but how you do it!

As Andy said, we're also working on the technical solution to prevent it.



Now you lost me :)

Don't understand what you mean with the first comment, as it doesn't relate to anything I said; or you're just confirming what I said.

It's not a problem to stall on the bubble, and I obviously understand the reasons for doing so :)

Your second comment. You wrote "Banning player accounts for one thing and turning a blind eye to everything else is also unethical behaviour.". Not sure how to understand that in a different way, the context taken into consideration :)

Third comment doesn't make sense to me either, unless you actually have some contructive feedback or anything in particular about the process you don't like? - as mentioned in the previous comment, your theories are off.  So far your feedback has been that you don't like warnings, unless I've missed something between the lines :)


Let me explain quite simply.

- I am not against the technical limitation of ratholing

- I'm against any vague wording that can lead to warnings and subsequent account bans.

- This is my personal opinion. I'm not imposing it on anyone.

- I didn't ask for my opinion to be judged. I'm an adult, I'll figure it out on my own.

- I think stalling on the bubble is unethical.

I do not know English, and perhaps some of my words have not been translated correctly. But I hope you understand my position.

It probably does not coincide with yours. That's okay. People often see things differently.

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@Livertool This is something that I've noticed too. I'm pretty sure that they just close the table for 20-30 seconds and then open it again. If this is what @Argevolen meant before, it's a real problem. Players stalling with out loosing their time bank should be against the rules too. But I hope, that Unibet will react to it if you just report these people. 

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@Stubbe-Unibet wrote:

I'm not annoyed at all, and in principle I can of course understand the concern. However, it's not like you're new to the site, and you know by now that we don't just block poker without a reason. Making up theories that contradicts what's written earlier in the thread, the entire history of Unibet poker etc., when you know the product as well as you do, that's not very constructive, but I don't mind decisions being questioned or discussed :)

 

Andy clarified in the very first post that the funds would never be at risk and we'd never block someone without a warning first (when we're talking ratholing). He also made it clear that it's quite significant "abuse". I clarified later on both of these points, mentioning that we'd handle it case-by-case and we'd likely issue a 2nd warning in some cases.

 

The technical implementation will be announced in due course (at least 2 weeks prior to it being released). It'll basically be limited how often you can return with less than you left, so casual "ratholing" will be possible, but what I'd consider "abuse" won't be possible.

 

I didn't say anything you said is stupid, but I stand by that majority of your comments don't make any sense to me, and you approach the subject in a very strange fashion, considering how well you know the product, our approach and how long you've been active on here. If we had a history of blocking poker left and right and never being transparent, I'd get where you're coming from, but that isn't exactly the case :)


This is most likely due to the difficulty of translation.)

Unibet really has an honest approach to players.

But I'm sure you understand the reasons for the regulars' fears.

Thanks for the detailed explanation. I really hope that everyone will benefit from your innovations.

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@Argevolen  It annoys me that the players play very fast 🤣. So what? Ban everyone? 😃 The game provides for a certain time, like in chess. Your right to use it or not 😃


@Argevolen wrote:

@Andy-Unibet wrote:

Hi @FreedoM,

How we would deal with players that ignore any warnings we give them would obviously be on a case by case basis and I hope we don't have to do it with any of the players that received this email or any other we send in future. Having said that, we also have to consider whether it is worth allowing a single player back when they've made the playing experience of many other customer worse in the past. We don't take account blocking/closure lightly and it is considered a last resort. 

As far as I'm concerned, if a player received a one month block and then came back and continued to persistently rathole then a 3 month, 6 month or 1 year block is not going to change their behaviour. The email sent out should be the trigger for these players to reflect on their behavior and decide if they want to change it or not.

Automatic ratholing prevention is on the development roadmap and will hopefully eliminate this issue in the future.


Slowroll is also unethical behaviour. Etiquette and poker are not compatible at all! We are not in an English club for aristocrats.
Many annoying things are part of the players' strategy.  Constant use of timebank on the bubble in a tournament is also unethical behaviour.
Banning player accounts for one thing and turning a blind eye to everything else is also unethical behaviour.




 

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@Argevolen wrote:


Many annoying things are part of the players' strategy.  Constant use of timebank on the bubble in a tournament is also unethical behaviour.

 

 


 

@Argevolen, if it were only on the bubble...😠 To me this is even more annoying.

@Merenitsu on 24 hour suicide watch if Unibet finally gets their stuff together and deals with this as well.

We're gonna win on so many levels! We're gonna win, win, win. You're gonna get so tired of winning, you're gonna say: "Mr. President please, we don't wanna win anymore, it's too much!" And I'm gonna say: "I'm sorry, we're gonna keep winning because we're gonna make America great again!"
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@FreedoM wrote:


Interestingly,ratholing confers no specific advantage to the ratholer and no disadvantage to the other players at the table. In other words, there is no decent reason why ratholing should be considered unethical.

 Actually ratholing does confer an advantage to the ratholer. If we consider that there are two general ways of making a profit in poker 1) having value and betting it, 2) having a worse hand but bluffing it - the second of these is massively reduced when the opponent is short stacked. In fact, it's relatively straightforward to devise a strategy of "fold most things, but when you have enough equity, commit" which works for a short stack but for which there is too much jeopardy when deep stacked. Rolf Slotboom wrote an entire book on it for Omaha! It's basically an implied odds/reverse implied odds issue.

So it's not just an ethical dimension, it's actually bad for the game to let shortstackers (consistently) get away with it. For sure, sites allow short stacks so that less-rolled players can take a shot, or play more comfortably at higher stakes at least. Taking steps to mitigate ratholing is a way to reduce money going out of the player pool to what is essentially a cookie-cutter way of making money for some types of player.

 

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ratholing.jpg.2c0e3a22e20b69f8e50c91cd8ddcd17d.jpg

This letter came to me right after a short lunchtime session.
I played for about an hour.
I played a lot of tables
I play the classic MSS strategy. I don't leave the table if I win 5-10-20bb.
Maybe I don't understand something...but my actions don't seem like ratholing to me.
However, one session of 1 hour, was quite enough to send me this email!
I have no hand history and it's hard for me to understand what I did wrong.
Now I have to sit at all the tables for 2-3 hours at a time. Even if there are only two of us and my opponent is in the sit-out. Even if I want to take my mind off poker for 15-20 minutes. Even if my stack is 500bb.

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@Argevolen, let me try and explain the reason behind your warning. It should hopefully provide some context to everyone else as well.

The warning wasn't issued based on your session today. It's based on data for a long period of time.

The main reason behind your warning is simply:
- You leave the table for then to return to the very same table in less than a minute
- You leave with less than 100bb and return with 50bb (on some occasions you of course leave with more than 100bb)
- You do this many hundred times a month

If you want to avoid getting a second warning/getting poker blocked, you should quite simply stop leaving tables for then to return to same table with 50bb, and you definitely shouldn't do it hundreds of times a month.
If you leave with 75-150bb and return with 50bb, and you do it at such a high rate, you will run into problems, and this won't be possible either, when we implement the technical prevention, so you might as well get used to it :)

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@Stubbe-Unibet wrote:

@Argevolen

- You leave the table for then to return to the very same table in less than a minute

- You leave with less than 100bb and return with 50bb (on some occasions you of course leave with more than 100bb)

- You do this many hundred times a month

 

 

 


 

Maxyim, I'm demanding answers! :wow:

We're gonna win on so many levels! We're gonna win, win, win. You're gonna get so tired of winning, you're gonna say: "Mr. President please, we don't wanna win anymore, it's too much!" And I'm gonna say: "I'm sorry, we're gonna keep winning because we're gonna make America great again!"
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@Stubbe-Unibet wrote:

The main reason behind your warning is simply:

- You leave the table for then to return to the very same table in less than a minute

I understand this claim. I will change my style of play.

- You leave with less than 100bb and return with 50bb (on some occasions you of course leave with more than 100bb)

 Okay. I will not leave the table if I have less than 150bb

- You do this many hundred times a month

I play six tables. About 20 days a month. About 30-50k hands a month.

Sometimes it's 2-3-4 short sessions a day.

I have been playing for many years and can easily predict what can happen to me during this period (1 month).

3-4 times my computer will freeze up.

5-10 times I will have connection problems

1-2 times (sometimes 10-15 times) connection problems will be from Unibet side

20-30 times I will have to close the tables for 5-10 min to solve my domestic issues.

About 100 times I will leave the table because there is one player left or players went to sit-outs. (when there is little traffic this happens very often)

20-30 times -Tilt (you know those lucky "any two" all-in guys)

I sometimes close the table for 2-3 minutes to calm down a bit.

5-10 times missclick

Considering that I play 6 tables...I think that's enough to consider me a terrible ratholer. That's hundreds of instances of unethical behavior.

 

 

 

 

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@WuDu wrote:


@Stubbe-Unibet wrote:

@Argevolen

- You leave the table for then to return to the very same table in less than a minute

- You leave with less than 100bb and return with 50bb (on some occasions you of course leave with more than 100bb)

- You do this many hundred times a month

 

 

 


 

Maxyim, I'm demanding answers! :wow:

 


Maxim is more familiar to me:happy:

Specially for you @WuDu 😉

I wrote that I play the classic MSS (50bb)

This strategy implies that we leave the table when we have more than 90bb

In the post above I described for what other reasons I might leave the tables.

 

 

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Is there no way to save a players stack size when they leave table and they will have to buy in the original stack size (what they left the table with - unless they don't have enough in their bankroll) if they rejoin? You can even consider resetting the buyin back after a certain amount of time..
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@Bl3ss3dMMA wrote:


@Argevolen wrote:


I wrote that I play the classic MSS (50bb)

This strategy implies that we leave the table when we have more than 90bb

 

 

you wrote twice in this thread you play MSS and still claiming not ratholing LMAO!!!

tenor

let me be clear: SSS/MSS strategies are the definition of ratholing!!!

SaneUnrulyAsianlion-size_restricted


 


Our opinion on the ratholing issue is not important!

It is important to understand how Unibet sees this situation!

My questions and the moderators answers, helped me understand how Unibet sees this situation!

I hope it has helped other players as well. Including you, too

Your message, this is just spam.

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  • 2 weeks later...

@Stubbe-Unibet wrote:

@Livertool, yes, disconnection time is on the backlog as well. Will need to get an update on it, in regards to timeline :)

If someone is seriously abusing it today, please do report it and Andy or I will have a look and issue a warning if we deem it necessary :)


Don't enjoy life as weasel but this dude must have disconnected like 10 times in hour @Stubbe-Unibet @Andy-Unibet 

1797101213_Screenshot_20210331-1917232.png.ea3042a0a87dc448d364366e02cd0b16.png

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To bet or not to bet, that is the question.
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  • 3 weeks later...
3 minutes ago, LLinusLLomu00 said:

Hi @Stubbe-Unibet, I'm not  sure if this is ratholing, but if a player will snap sit out everytime a rec/weak player stops playing is this considered ratholing or is this ok, thanks.

 

It's not ratholing but it's bad for the ecosystem. This is one of the reasons most live games transition to private games.

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hi guys!

i guess the emails you sent didn't do much effect unfortunately 😞 multiple ppl still ratholing at the tables. i am speaking of those who were using the same alias since i joined this site.

despite of this bad situation i see and really appreciate the effort you make by continuously working on the software. ofc course there is always room to improve but the software is getting better and better by every update!!

thx 4 your work ;)

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1 hour ago, Bl3ss3dMMA said:

hi guys!

i guess the emails you sent didn't do much effect unfortunately 😞 multiple ppl still ratholing at the tables. i am speaking of those who were using the same alias since i joined this site.

despite of this bad situation i see and really appreciate the effort you make by continuously working on the software. ofc course there is always room to improve but the software is getting better and better by every update!!

thx 4 your work 😉

I've just requested an updated list since the warnings. If it is as you say, there'll probably be some poker blocks taking effect soon 🙂

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@Stubbe-UnibetThis totally was the case at least on PLO10 while I was playing few hours week or two ago. People joining with 50bb and moving chips away after winning more than 30bb. There certainly was more than one guy doing this. I just decided to wasting time in there. You should just do the same as in Banzai that you have to join with the sam stack you left the table. 

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I think it's good for us to be as transparent as we can about these things so here is the latest.

Of the 25 accounts we send emails to originally, 7 appeared in the list of players that ratholed over 100 times in the last data run (01/03/2021 - 24/04/2021). Those accounts had poker blocked this morning and emails will be sent to those account holders to let them know poker will not be unblocked until the confirm the understand what ratholing is and that they will not continue to do it in future. If they appear in the next data run, poker will be blocked permanently.

A handful of new accounts appears in the 100+ club in the second data run and they will be sent the warning email that was posted earlier in the thread.

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Poker Janitor

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