Bounty Badland points system

[MoreTBC]

I'm going to derail my own thread here but I had an idea so I though I should write it down :)

 

Is it possible to cap the number of tables that generate points for the Bootcamp/SnG promos?

I'm using 's twitch schedule as a guide for this which would suggest you need 40+ hours a week 8 tabling NL10 to make a decent run at the leaderboard. This does not seem like something a rec 9-5 working/with family  player can achieve. The Bootcamp/SnG promos are grindy, there is no denying that. They benefit the volume players.

So I thought, you could cap the tables that count towards the promo and level the playing field :) Let's use a 4 table cap for this example.

Player A (Me/Non Cash or SnG reg) - With the cap, I'd consider throwing 2 tables of cash and/or SnG into my rotation while focusing on the MTT promo for the month. If I'm playing 5 days a week for a few hours I might get a nice run and make either of the board. I'd certainly be more inclined to try than in the current state.

Player B (Cash/SnG reg) - They're playing 4+ tables anyway. It doesn't affect their win rate, (and may possibly increase it with non-regular players added to the pool) and they still earn the maximum amount towards the promo. The obvious possible downside is that player B will now limit his/her play to the cap amount because he feels playing table 5+ is not valuable to him/her [insert Oldburfs quote about concentrating on winning on the tables, the promo is extra here :)] 

All the rest of the promo stays the same, the multiplier still exists for the HS guys, it just gives the guy that can only play for a few hours a day a little more chance of getting a kickback from the leaderboard.

Thoughts?

[OldBurf]

Here is a few possible pros/cons I could think of, I feel like there should be more. :)

pros:

• Player's who don't mass table have better chances to win reward.
• Increases gameplay in other types (SNG,MTT)

Cons:

• A new player may feel forced to play 4 tables. Causing them to play worse and possibly lose their money faster.
• Prizes may drop and be less attractive, due to less overall rake.
• Promo becomes more complex.
• A person plays 5 tables and gets a straight flush on their 5th table. :robotmad:

I can't think of many positives but in comparison the negatives aren't that bad. I don't think it would change much, in the end grinders would still play more hours. It is just a scaled down version. It just allows a certain subset of player's that you are part of be able to get a prize easier. :robotwink:

I think a better way to even the gap is to have a Low and High LB. I think this is the way it was in the past for this promo or maybe i am thinking of another.

[MoreTBC]

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@OldBurf wrote:

Here is a few possible pros/cons I could think of, I feel like there should be more. :)

pros:

• Player's who don't mass table have better chances to win reward.
• Increases gameplay in other types (SNG,MTT)

Cons:

• A new player may feel forced to play 4 tables. Causing them to play worse and possibly lose their money faster.
• Prizes may drop and be less attractive, due to less overall rake.
• Promo becomes more complex.
• A person plays 5 tables and gets a straight flush on their 5th table. :robotmad:

I can't think of many positives but in comparison the negatives aren't that bad. I don't think it would change much, in the end grinders would still play more hours. It is just a scaled down version. It just allows a certain subset of player's that you are part of be able to get a prize easier. :robotwink:

I think a better way to even the gap is to have a Low and High LB. I think this is the way it was in the past for this promo or maybe i am thinking of another.

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• New players/any player really are forced to play as many tables as possible under the current promo, If anything it's helping curb that.
• Possibly. I don't know if the promo prize pool is based on potential rake generated from the promo or on a predetermined budget already created. Rake levels shouldn't really decrease anyway unless people limit themselves to 4 tables because they feel the extra tables beyond that are not valuable. The Unibet guys might give an incite into how prize pools are determined.
• Yes, it's slightly more complex
• The player wins x amount of €s most likely for having a straight flush on their 5th table. The points should just be extra right ;)

 

High/Low leaderboards could work but it doesn't really eliminate the grinding part. I suppose it just creates two lower prize pools instead of one big one the small stakes players can dream of :)

[OldBurf]

Fair points man. Yeah i thought about the low/high LBs some more after posting. While it does give low table NL10 players and NL4 grinders more chance It probably encourages some players to drop from 50NL-25NL and also 25NL to 10NL. It causes a ripple effect and also 50NL chances probably have low chance on high board unless they are 8tablers.

[DavidP_Unibet]

Thanks for the suggestions, it might get tricky to introduce a table cap for one specific promotion though. Also if someone wants to play more tables then it's not a great experience for them if we limit them during this promotion. An alternative solution is that only your first 2 hours of play count towards Bootcamp each day. We'll definitely take away the feedback above though and try to re-work the promos if they were to come back again in future.

[MoreTBC]

I was only meaning capping the numbers of tables that would award points to the promo, not the max playable. If someone wanted to play 8 tables that would be fine, the first 4 tables would generate points for the leaderboard, the second 4 wouldn't.

A daily time limit could work for the cash promo but it wouldn't really work for SnGs due to the variable completion time of the format. You could have a best games cap, like the MTT one, for the SnG where your 50 best SnGs count or something. 

[DavidP_Unibet]

Agreed, time limit could work for cash games while first x number of games would work better for SNGs and MTTs.

[DaVitsche]

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@DavidP_Unibet wrote:

Agreed, time limit could work for cash games while first x number of games would work better for SNGs and MTTs.

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Well, if you timecap the microstakes player has no shot at all. Those promo's reward the grinders more, because they contribute more rake to the prizepool.

However, I think a segregration of pools would be a good thing though. Because a 400NL player only has to play 1/4 of what I play and they aren't limited to 8 tables. However, the higher you go the less likely you'll get points because of the preflop agression. I can't see a lot of 400NL players getting to the flop 4way, or seeing the flop back to back etc.

With 3 more days to go, and the 400NL pool going strong as we speak, I guess I'll end around 50-60th place. The double week was probably not the best week to try and prove my point.

[MoreTBC]

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@DaVitsche wrote:

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Well, if you timecap the microstakes player has no shot at all. Those promo's reward the grinders more, because they contribute more rake to the prizepool.

However, I think a segregration of pools would be a good thing though. Because a 400NL player only has to play 1/4 of what I play and they aren't limited to 8 tables. However, the higher you go the less likely you'll get points because of the preflop agression. I can't see a lot of 400NL players getting to the flop 4way, or seeing the flop back to back etc.

With 3 more days to go, and the 400NL pool going strong as we speak, I guess I'll end around 50-60th place. The double week was probably not the best week to try and prove my point.

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 I think a timecap does the complete opposite. With a time cap you allowing the varience and randomness of the points generation be more of a factor over simply opening more tables/playing higher levels to generate points.

You can take a NL10 player and a NL100 player, they both complete all the non-multipler points challenges for the week so they have the same base points total. After that most of the situations either player can earn points are mostly randomly generated. The 2-7, AA and Straight flush are based on you randomly getting the cards to complete them. If you limit the time that can happen each day for both players in increases the possibility that the NL10 player will earn more points if the NL100 player just doesn't get the cards. I agree it's probably slightly harder for the top level guys to earn some of the lowest point challenges but an NL400 player only needs the situation to happen once for every 4 times at NL10 for them to have a level playing field.

At present there are three things (IMO) you can do to improve your chances of getting on the leaderboard, Play more tables, play longer and move up stakes. All three factors are not casual player friendly. 

"We want people to be able to play a couple of games and get lucky and receive a reward." - Unibet Andrew (Note: This was related to the SnG promo but should apply to the bootcamp too)

Your NL10 challenge is proving that this just isn't going to happen. After multiple hours play on 8 tables for the full 7 days you expect to be in a position around 50-100. I've been throwing 2-4 tables of NL4/PLO4 in around MTTs I've been playing over the last few days and after 500+ flops I'm 800+ on the leaderboard. I consider my play rate to be casual and if I saw it pop up that I was 867th on the leaderboard in week one I wouldn't even bother with the promo again and play something else. If after two hours play I see that I'm much higher on the leaderboard because I had a good run and got a straight flush or two I'd be much more inclined to keep playing for the rest of the week.

I suppose the only way to know either way would be to take actualy points tallies from several players at different levels in a 2 hour period each day and see how much closer/further away they would be compared to after full days play.

[DaVitsche]

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@MoreTBC wrote:

The 2-7, AA and Straight flush are based on you randomly getting the cards to complete them

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This isn't random at all. Every hand you have a 1.21% chance of getting dealt 72 and a 0.45% chance of aces of which you'll lose a certain amount at showdown. This is going to be pretty much the same for everyone, and even timecapping won't create big distortions. The only difference is that after timecapping, it becomes nearly impossible for a micro/low stakes grinder to compete. When I started I knew it wasn't going to be for everyone. But it was just a way to show that it is possible ... hard, but possible :)

The truth is that leaderboards are promo's for the grinders. A recreational player will rarely have a good position. But that is ok, there are promo's that are targeted at recreational players, and promo's that target grinders. Very few of the grinders are going to finish the missions, or recently there was the moving on up promo where you got €4 to €25 cashgame tickets. Not a lot of grinders bother to complete those requirements.

Unfortunatly it is very hard to come up with promotions that appeal to both groups. Or even those that float in between the two.

[MoreTBC]

I'll come back to the Bootcamp shortly as I think there will be bigger gaps between the points that can be earned based on two 1000 hand samples than you do but I can't find a way to prove it quickly online yet :)

 

Back to bounties, I have mocked up this little beauty..

I fully understand this is a tiny sample and in no way represents a full months play but it's a tiny indication of how things could work if points were weighted more to entrants than buy-in. I'm also aware there are probably glaring issues with the points system itself but I'm not a maths genius so I kept it simple :) I don't have a lot of data to run through it to compare player vs player but hopefully I'll get a breakdown of my results from support so I can at least use them as a basis.  

 

Side Question: If you win a Bounty tourney do you get points for collecting your own bounty?

[MoreTBC]



https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/6975209/RandomHandGenerator%28V1.0%29.xlsx

 

I've created a random hand generator that will create 1000 hands and let you know how many were AA and how many were 2-7. I don't know if 1000 hands is a good representation of what 8 tables, 2 hours a day for a week is but I can always edit the numbers if required. 

For the example below I've generated 10 sets of 1000 hands (5 for NL10 and 5 for NL100) and calculated the points they could get. I chucked in a random NL4 and NL 400 as well just for kicks :) The points is based on you you losing 1 in 5 AA hands at showdown and it's been rounded down (so if 3 AA over 1000 hands would be no points).

I apologise for the formatting, the forum destroyed my table :(

	AA	2-7	Points
NL10 - 1	5	14	116
NL10 - 2	3	9	36
NL10 - 3	1	8	32
NL10 - 4	3	14	56
NL10 - 5	5	12	108
NL100 – 1	3	16	192
NL100 – 2	4	17	204
NL100 – 3	3	13	156
NL100 – 4	1	16	192
NL100 – 5	7	14	348
NL4 – 1	8	16	62
NL400 -1	1	13	208

 

Based on this a low stakes player could easily hit a straight flush or two and be ahead of a higher stakes player that had a bad run. I'm sure it'll work the other way where a NL400 player on a heater is going to steal the leaderboard by a mile but think on whole the leaderboard would be shuffled a lot more with a time cap.

 

[jerry]

Anyone know where to see the end results for the other Bounty Badlands competition? Just wanna see if i can stand the chance in the low stakes. I roughly estimate with some good flips i could make 100 points. Would that be enough? :P

[MoreTBC]

There are already people over 100 points in the low league so the short answer is no, it's not enough.

[Rushbie]

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@MoreTBC wrote:

There are already people over 100 points in the low league so the short answer is no, it's not enough.

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Well, currently I'm the other one at low list, who's over 100 points, so wouldn't be so sure.

Expect nothing less than a shtload of bs losses coming at you, so better get your mindset right and pray RNGesus to be fair.

I'm up like +€200-€300 already from weeks tournaments, even when started too late, so not gonna waste a single tournament in this month 🆒

Now back to sleep, this day started horribly.

C U at the anonym tables all, GG! :laugh:

 

[jerry]

Some people could have already 20 MTTs behind them, so the room for improvement could be narrow. Would like to know exactly how many points 40th placed user had in the last bounty badlands. Anyone? ✋ 

[MoreTBC]

It's your 20 best results, not the first 20 you play so you have all month to improve. 100 points will get you in the top 40 I think. I had a look back in my blog to see if I recorded previous scores but didn't :(

[Rushbie]

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@MoreTBC wrote:

It's your 20 best results, not the first 20 you play so you have all month to improve.

 

 

This. It's kinda a contest for the best average of bountys won per game, with your best 20 games. The last quarter of the month will be tight as hell, but would be suprised if anyone reaches 150.

Too bad you didn't find the earlier stats, @MoreTBC. Those would've been interesting to see 😃

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[MetalWolf]

Would expect a score of 170+ to win it or even higher. I'm on 56 from 8 tournaments, and whilst I don't expect to keep that trend up, it's the 20 best tournaments and you can constantly improve. Someone on a heater would expect to get that many I think. I love this sort of challenge. Really looking forward to grinding it later this week.