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Late Registrations In Satellites Need to Be Looked At


sgriff

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I feel that you need to take another look at how long you allow late registrations in satellites.  You have the situation where people are late registering at, or near the bubble stage, with an unfair advantage and having not spent any time playing or effort made in helping start the satellite in the first place.

Why an unfair advantage when they start below average stack?  Because they can observe the table in the minutes leading to them joining and play accordingly, whilst the players at the table have been playing bubble tactics and winding down their stack thinking it will be enough.  They then jump in and shove their first couple of hands knowing through previous observation that the other players have tightened right up, the existing players can't react to them correctly as they have no history on this new player (unlike the new player who can observe before he joins). Suddenly they have the same stack as many of the remaining players having invested less than 10 minutes time.

I experienced this yesterday in the UK Tour Final and wasted over 2hrs time as a result.  When we were down to two off the bubble and the above happened to me, I ended up bubbling with the late registration player going through. I wasn't going to write anything as it sounds like sour grapes, but I'm just drawing up a mini playing schedule now and my reaction to the satellites was 'I can't be bothered playing those given the late reg problem' so given that reaction I thought maybe I should take some time out of my day and share my experience and the impact it is having on how often I play in case it helps others as I can't be only one annoyed by this.  

This has also happened to my wife (on the actual bubble) and her reaction was 'what's the point in playing?' and she has actually stopped playing now.  It's not the only reason, but it was a bad impression on what was a new player.

There is a risk of course by writing this that others will copy the tactic, but the onus is I feel on Unibet to fix this.  I know late registration is necessary to help fund the guarantee, but allowing registration this late on puts off people in the first place.  Other sites offer a more sensible late registration period and I haven't experienced this in the satellites I've played there.   

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Well this has been an issue for years, it's nothing new, and unfortunately it can happen even in the early stages of latereg so decreasing it doesnt't completely eliminate the problem, but it would help ... now the question is how big the impact in player numbers would be, because the people that latereg last minute all the time, well they'd still reg probably, just earlier.

Now this being a known issue for years, as a reg there isn't much to complain about in terms of strategy. I know this happens, so if it's the bubble, and an overlay, there is no bubble 95% of the time, so I just play it assuming someone is watching, because most often that is the case. Just a small adjustment, whatever, slightly annoying but it is what is is. 

And in terms of fairness, one plays a long time, one plays 10 minutes, well we play from the start because it increases our chances to win, we get more hands to exert our edge and every hand we play increases our overall profits (not all formats have worth it early levels to be fair). This is one thing that always seemed odd to me, seeing a good player, always join on the bubble, because even tho that player isn't actually playing for an let's say an hour, he still has the table open and starring at every hand, it's not like he has more table space or is in the kitchen while it happens, so his hourly doesn't actually improve that much. And the info he gains/others don't gain doesn't mean that much since he joins in the push/fold stage. The big unfair advantage is when they manage to snipe the prizes but that almost never happens fortunately.   

That being said, the real peoblem is the other thing you mentioned, a non reg wants to play and sees this ... they will quit. It's a very very bad experience for them. So while for us a regs it's probably not a big deal overall cause we adjust, and us complaining might not mean much cause we continue playing, the fact that it makes recs have a bad experience is huge and should be looked into how to improve this. But it is kinda hard to do so since it is an issue of liquidity, stopping latereg on the bubble was suggested a bunch of times but it's not feasible since many tournaments start on the bubble, or reach this bubble stage multiple times in the early levels.

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I used to always start from the beginning of mtts and have this happen to me a lot now in certain games I find it better to do as you describe. 

I think the problem is mainly to do with numbers of players, Its something not worth doing in a UO sunday final because there are quite a lot of players but in a UK final your never going to be that far away from being in the money usually a single double will get you there.

Maybe reg needs to end well before it gets to the shove/fold phase or maybe it will naturally get fixed as hopefully more people join in the sats and its not worth late regging when miles of the money.

At the end of the day people will play the way that they feel gives then the biggest return.

I agree with nmpfan I myself would join earlier if the reg finished earlier, in thruth I would prob start all games from the start if the late reg wasnt so long in certain games because I dont want to play 2 hours to be knocked out by someone playing 2 minutes, as the old saying goes "if you cant beat them join them"

 

 

You can exchange UO tickets again all is unicorns and rainbows in Unibet land.
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Good post. It's not the first complaint on the satellite system lately, and probably a very good thing that it's being addressed. Myself, I never really play MTTs, and even less satellites, but seems there a problem there. As I'm definitely not qualified to comment on the specifics, or to the solutions of the problem, I won't. But I'm sure that a tecnical solution exists, and I don't think that any solution should lay on the moral of the players taking advantakge of such leaks in the system. If there's a +ev spot, there will always be someone taking advantage of it, not obeying by any kind of "moral/spirit of poker" which others might abide by. I also don't think that players who take advantage of such spots should be punished anyway. If it's there, it should be exploitable. It's the site's job to take care that very advantageous exploitable spots don't regularily occur.

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Thanks for reading this and your replies.

I agree with @FeelsBadMan that it is very off-putting to new people.  When my wife was complaining about it I had a similar reaction 'that's just the way it is' and 'all sites allow it; that is how they build the prize pool - you just have to accept it.  I think the difference here is that Unibet are allowing people to come in on the push/fold stage, and I agree with @jonny2192 that reducing the late registration period should help there.  Whilst it won't stop people joining on a bubble in certain situations with deeper stacks, at least they then have to play a bit of poker to earn the prize rather than win a couple of flips.

I was perhaps more annoyed than I would be usually as I had been all in 3 times pre-flop with hands like AA v xx, AKs v A8o and another similar match up and had lost all 3, but managed to battle back to the brink of qualification only for someone to turn up and win a few flips and take a package.  I totally agree with @LCW that if people are spotting an edge by turning up late then good luck to them.  It's up to Unibet to make sure that there is a balance.  I don't think allowing registration at the push/fold stage of a final is in keeping with a balanced approach.  It also puts the new players at a serious disadvantage to regulars who know which tournaments to target.

Any thoughts @Leo-Unibet ?

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I'm sure there are some technical issues to overcome or it would have been done already but I think the way to overcome this is:

1) During the late reg period, don't allow registration if the current players are on the stone bubble and the average stack is 15bb or lower.

2) When a player late regs a satty, he/she becomes active at the end of the hand AFTER the one currently being played. If the tournament ends during the hand when they register then they have their buyin refunded.

I'm sure it's a lot easier to suggest than it is to implement but it would go a long way towards eliminating bubble snipers.

Formerly known as StartlingGrope
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  • 2 weeks later...

20/02/18: €25_uktour_satellite

3_players_remain:

1st_€100_TICKET

2nd_€15_CASH

//theMachine_LATE-REGISTRATION:

12bbs

//themachine_all-in_first_hand:

Q8<A10

//theMachine_ELIMINATED:

3_players_remain:

1st_€100_TICKET

2nd_€25_TICKET

3rd_€15_CASH

//PLEASE_STOP_theMachine_FROM_THIS_MADNESS

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Thanks @sgriff for your thoughts regarding the late registration. The reason why I keep the registration open for quite a long time is quite obvious that I want to have as many players as possible in the qualifiers. Maybe the eager to secure the numbers is making the player experience less enjoyable. I'm attending Unibet Open this week but I will defenitely look into this when I'm back at the office next week.

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Yeah it's a bit disgusting :/

Had it 3 times today (if it wasn't more,), just when I KO the last player on the bubble, a new one joins. Then he shoves first hand and I call (with something reasonable like ATs+, which ofcourse isn't the perfect call in a satty, but it's also a bit out of rage.)

Ofcourse his shove is with something in the likes of 94o and he wins it. I'm crippled to the shortie and there is no recovering.

I mean. It's bad from me to call immediatly, but you should understand the frustration... 

On the other hand I see closed sats when they are 3 places from the money and there should be 10+ mins of late reg left...

EDIT: Instead of only complaining I find it fair that I should also suggest some changes.

- Make qualifiers deeper overall with the same late reg period. I think it will give players a little bit more opportunity to play when the late reg ends. 

- Implement the system as ChapInAChair mentioned, altough it's still frustrating if you're second stack with 2 places paid and 2 players with 5BB's left behind you (which will bust soon probably) and then someone joins with an equal stack as you

- Make it that for qualifiers (or at least from the moment they are coming close to the bubble) the tables can not be observed anymore and there is no info on the stacks of the remaining players (only the number of players left and the pay-outs are shown) => This is very drastic, and not the most optimal solution, but it would work aswell I think

I see now that the circumstances of ones birth are irrelevant... It is what you do with the gift of life that determines who you are.
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@Leo-Unibetwrote:

Thanks @sgriff for your thoughts regarding the late registration. The reason why I keep the registration open for quite a long time is quite obvious that I want to have as many players as possible in the qualifiers. Maybe the eager to secure the numbers is making the player experience less enjoyable. I'm attending Unibet Open this week but I will defenitely look into this when I'm back at the office next week.


Thanks @Leo-Unibet for being open-minded.  I appreciate it's not easy to get a balance, although as @VikingsAF has just mentioned it is annoying and off-putting when you think you have won and someone jumps in.  I won't be at this Unibet Open or the next one as I didn't know the event dates before it was too late and made other commitments, but hopefully I'll catch up with you at a future event.

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@Leo-Unibet

This goes beyond all  expectations...

We were in the money and this guy could still reg, having double of my stack, which made me fall out of the money.Screenshot_20180222-114147.thumb.jpg.2bc0f55d6e68fb33c0e30679c0f9af19.jpg

 

 

The guy with exactly 3k chips. He came in after we played a few hands while in the money

I was sure I would at least get some things back, but now thattwas fairly hard (in the end i did cash, but that isn't the point here) 

I see now that the circumstances of ones birth are irrelevant... It is what you do with the gift of life that determines who you are.
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@VikingsAF That looks really bad, I defenitely will go over the qualifiers and shorten the late registration so these situations don't happens.
A bit special this one though where it was so many €2-tickets being paid out, still.... this should not happend. I will go fix this, give me one week to go trough 
all qualifiers. Thanks for reporting this "issue"

  

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Just saw a guy bust 4 players in a row in the 25 euro UK tour with 3 left and 2 itm. Everytime he had made it some guy joined the tournament. It happened 4 times before no new players joined and he finally won.

Its not good for the game that there are people spectating and joining just when the tournament should be finished. Why have you guys extended the late reg in UK tour events with over double the time? Id rather see there guaratee be lowered and the late reg going back to before. Im not sure if Im interested in playing them the way it is now.

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@Wibbe wrote:

Just saw a guy bust 4 players in a row in the 25 euro UK tour with 3 left and 2 itm. Everytime he had made it some guy joined the tournament. It happened 4 times before no new players joined and he finally won.

Its not good for the game that there are people spectating and joining just when the tournament should be finished. Why have you guys extended the late reg in UK tour events with over double the time? Id rather see there guaratee be lowered and the late reg going back to before. Im not sure if Im interested in playing them the way it is now.


Late reg was extended at the request of a few community members wanting more play in a 25e game, I also prefered them as they were.

You can exchange UO tickets again all is unicorns and rainbows in Unibet land.
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@Wibbewrote:

Just saw a guy bust 4 players in a row in the 25 euro UK tour with 3 left and 2 itm. Everytime he had made it some guy joined the tournament. It happened 4 times before no new players joined and he finally won.

Its not good for the game that there are people spectating and joining just when the tournament should be finished. Why have you guys extended the late reg in UK tour events with over double the time? Id rather see there guaratee be lowered and the late reg going back to before. Im not sure if Im interested in playing them the way it is now.


Totally agree. It's becoming a joke now.   @Leo-Unibet - when the guy who has just won the Unibet Open as a community member is becoming p****d off, you know you've got a problem.

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@sgriff wrote:

@Wibbewrote:

Just saw a guy bust 4 players in a row in the 25 euro UK tour with 3 left and 2 itm. Everytime he had made it some guy joined the tournament. It happened 4 times before no new players joined and he finally won.

Its not good for the game that there are people spectating and joining just when the tournament should be finished. Why have you guys extended the late reg in UK tour events with over double the time? Id rather see there guaratee be lowered and the late reg going back to before. Im not sure if Im interested in playing them the way it is now.


Totally agree. It's becoming a joke now.   @Leo-Unibet - when the guy who has just won the Unibet Open as a community member is becoming p****d off, you know you've got a problem.


Hi   @sgriff   I've gone trough most of the qualifiers and shorten the late registration to 5 levels on most of them, I hope this will remove the bad experience of players registring super late into the tournamen. Please let me know if you feel they setup is better after the changes. 

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@Leo-Unibetwrote:


@sgriffwrote:


@Wibbewrote:

Just saw a guy bust 4 players in a row in the 25 euro UK tour with 3 left and 2 itm. Everytime he had made it some guy joined the tournament. It happened 4 times before no new players joined and he finally won.

Its not good for the game that there are people spectating and joining just when the tournament should be finished. Why have you guys extended the late reg in UK tour events with over double the time? Id rather see there guaratee be lowered and the late reg going back to before. Im not sure if Im interested in playing them the way it is now.


Totally agree. It's becoming a joke now.   @Leo-Unibet - when the guy who has just won the Unibet Open as a community member is becoming p****d off, you know you've got a problem.


Hi   @sgriff   I've gone trough most of the qualifiers and shorten the late registration to 5 levels on most of them, I hope this will remove the bad experience of players registring super late into the tournamen. Please let me know if you feel they setup is better after the changes. 


Hi @Leo-Unibet

I've had a look at the €25 UK Tour qualifier (ID7975237) as that is the one I would have played tonight.  That is currently showing a difference of 55 minutes between the start and registration closing which is 10 levels.  It's the bigger satellites (€25 & €100)  that should be played properly if there is going to be a difference between the different buy-in levels. Any chance they can be changed too?  And with Brighton coming up, is there any chance of an additional evening to win a package as the drop from 4 nights a week to one is making it difficult to qualify and have expenses covered, especially as it's on a Saturday night. I'm sure the demand will be there as other people will be in the same position.

It's a shame that the package finals have dropped from 4 to 1 a week, but I do understand it's costing Unibet money. On a personal note, from going to most of the events previously, it will probably mean I will end up skipping a lot of the events going forwards due to lack of opportunity to qualify (plus any ongoing annoyance with the satellite system).  Travelling a long distance and staying in a hotel means I can't really justify buying in direct or using a seat only ticket.   Last week I was going to book flights and a hotel for the Glasgow leg to get them at a reduced advanced rate, but then remembered I wouldn't get many opportunities to try to qualify as most Saturdays I'm busy so I didn't go ahead with the bookings.  Not Unibet's problem I know; it's just unfortunate from a personal point of view.

 

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@sgriff wrote:

@Leo-Unibetwrote:

@sgriffwrote:

@Wibbewrote:

Just saw a guy bust 4 players in a row in the 25 euro UK tour with 3 left and 2 itm. Everytime he had made it some guy joined the tournament. It happened 4 times before no new players joined and he finally won.

Its not good for the game that there are people spectating and joining just when the tournament should be finished. Why have you guys extended the late reg in UK tour events with over double the time? Id rather see there guaratee be lowered and the late reg going back to before. Im not sure if Im interested in playing them the way it is now.


Totally agree. It's becoming a joke now.   @Leo-Unibet - when the guy who has just won the Unibet Open as a community member is becoming p****d off, you know you've got a problem.


Hi   @sgriff   I've gone trough most of the qualifiers and shorten the late registration to 5 levels on most of them, I hope this will remove the bad experience of players registring super late into the tournamen. Please let me know if you feel they setup is better after the changes. 


Hi @Leo-Unibet

I've had a look at the €25 UK Tour qualifier (ID7975237) as that is the one I would have played tonight.  That is currently showing a difference of 55 minutes between the start and registration closing which is 10 levels.  It's the bigger satellites (€25 & €100)  that should be played properly if there is going to be a difference between the different buy-in levels. Any chance they can be changed too?  And with Brighton coming up, is there any chance of an additional evening to win a package as the drop from 4 nights a week to one is making it difficult to qualify and have expenses covered, especially as it's on a Saturday night. I'm sure the demand will be there as other people will be in the same position.

It's a shame that the package finals have dropped from 4 to 1 a week, but I do understand it's costing Unibet money. On a personal note, from going to most of the events previously, it will probably mean I will end up skipping a lot of the events going forwards due to lack of opportunity to qualify (plus any ongoing annoyance with the satellite system).  Travelling a long distance and staying in a hotel means I can't really justify buying in direct or using a seat only ticket.   Last week I was going to book flights and a hotel for the Glasgow leg to get them at a reduced advanced rate, but then remembered I wouldn't get many opportunities to try to qualify as most Saturdays I'm busy so I didn't go ahead with the bookings.  Not Unibet's problem I know; it's just unfortunate from a personal point of view.

 


@sgriff The "Qualifier to Unibet UK Tour €100 2TIX" is running with only 5 levels late registration. I'm sorry to hear that you have trouble finding time to participate in the Saturday final qualifiers. Du to unnecessary costs producing the "packages" we were obliged to merge all finals to one day per week. I hope you have some Saturdays off so you can continue qualifying for packages. Good Luck!

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Would be great to have a button in the table, ( maybe at settings..?) that you can see the amount of observers that are watching the game. That way you at least have hunch how many bubblerats are about to join the game when someone goes all-in. :wonder:

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